Death oOooOOoOo!!

Conversely, I think you must not have played UO at launch. The game changed greatly over the years.

At launch, when you died you became a ghost and your skills and attributes atrophied while a ghost. You had to return to your body quickly to minimize the damage.

I don't understand the argument that not having full loot only means unskilled players have the best gear. How does that prevent skilled players from getting gear the same as any others? And in most modern MMOs, only the most skilled players can run the most challenging PvE content. It takes skill to get that gear. Conversely, full loot means that a group of PKers lynching one player can now steal the best gear without needing skill. I don't see how that is a good system.

 

I played UO from the beta test on, so I guess I must have always res'ed quickly enough that this was never a problem, and it's not like I never died frequently starting out.

I don't understand the question. From what I said, how did you arrive at that?

This part presumes that there is uber gear to be had from high end PvE content. I think that assumption is unjustified. We don't even know if the game has uber gear. I hope it doesn't. I hope gear is reasonably cheap, and available from your favorite vendor, and from what I've gathered from the dev chats and from the crafting forums, that is the way that not only the devs want things to work, that is how most players want things to work as well.

If that is true, you are worried over nothing.

 

This is why I want some PvP mode that doesn't feature gear looting, both to help ease new players into the more open PvP with player looting, and to cater to players (like myself) that will never willingly engage in PvP where looting is possible.

Likely from the post I'm quoting below:

 

I think most PvP will not have full loot. At the bottom rung, the introduction to PvP quests Richard Garriott mentions, I would imagine they would not include full loot because the devs are trying to encourage PvE players to give PvP a try. I don't think that either duels or arena PvP would feature full loot either, since they are more sporting events than combat.

I don't think you would get into full loot until you get into guild wars, and finally open PvP, both of which I consider to be full combat modes where full loot makes sense, both tactically and strategically. Just because full loot may or may not be part of SotA PvP (still uncertain at this point, I think), don't presume it will be present in ALL PvP, and use that as an argument against PvP.

I had stopped playing UO by the time of the Age of Shadows, so I have no experience with that era. From what I have heard from the devs, the best gear in SotA will be crafted by players, and gear from PvE drops will be at best adequate, but certainly not superior. Unless the devs screw up down the road in subsequent releases and introduce an uber PvE gear grind raid system, this does not apply to SotA in any way, shape, or form, and the warning that the "love of gear is the root of all evil" remains in effect.

There are a lot details concerning SotA game design that we don't know as of yet, but I think people like Enderandrew would be better served if they worried about features we are fairly certain WILL be present in SotA before they worry about things we are pretty certain will NOT be in SotA. Once the devs make an official announcement about a thing, we can all rise up and riot if we think they are suggesting a particularly lousy idea. Until then, gentle suggestions that, "Yeah, don't do that. That would be a bad thing" are probably sufficient.

 

I'm hoping gear from PvE could at least be equal and on rare occasions be better. The UO model was great back when Vanquishing and Power weapons etc were around. I wouldn't go PvPing with a vanquishing or Power item unless I was certain we had the advantage. However player made items were still great and equivalent if not better than the other levels of magic items. I hope that happens for PvE otherwise there isn't going to be any worthwhile loot to be found on the adventurer's vendors.

So I'm hoping there is a Power and a Vanquishing and high level accuracy weapons that somewhat exceed player made items but they would be rare enough that people wouldn't want to lose them in PvP so people still use player made items during PvP.

 

Agree. Those magic weapons and armors were a bit better then the best crafters could do and were searched for in PvE. No need for any better gear in SOTA.

 

If SotA is anything like UO (and hopefully it is,) then the game will not be based on what weapons you have necessarily..
In WOW, the one with the best gear wins 9/10.. In UO, it was based on skill.. Someone with a GM battle axe was more or less on the same playing field as someone with a battle axe of power if they were skilled in pvp.. Which brings me to my next point.

With full loot in UO, most SMART players simply brought GM weapons/armor with them into battle.. They didn't want to risk their powerful magic items in a pvp situation.. Those were mostly saved for pve, which keeps pvp more even, keeps crafters doing their job and keeps the player driven economy running. If I ever went out for pvp, I would bring a set of GM armor, a couple GM weapons, regs, potions etc because I knew there was always a chance of losing it.

IMO, it made everyone play smarter while it also kept the guy that bought all of his armor on eBay (most of the time with no skill) from being OP.

I'm sure someone will argue this point and im sure this has already been put out there before, but that's just the way it went.

 

^ and I jusssstttt read the posts above mine.
Sorry for the shinfo!!

 

As I have said elsewhere, I am all for neutering the effect of mystic stat buffing equipment, BUT... the acquisition of better gear serves more purposes than merely giving players stat bonuses. When we reach the maximum level of skill advancement, learn the good spells, master the fighting techniques, it will halt a process of growth and character empowerment that starts at creation and continues up to that point. The sudden stop can frequently leave players directionless, looking to figure out what to do now. Sadly, I've never seen any dev team create ENOUGH end game content to perpetually satisfy that impulse, and without something to pursue, many people will lose interest. The gear grind satisfied that impulse. If the gear grind goes away, it begs replacing. What would it be replaced WITH?

 

Option 2 hands down!!

 

Again and again I'm seeing the same thing. If there IS amazing gear to be had, then full loot is bad. Even if I keep my slider set to Friends of Friends and No PvP 99% of the time, when I do set to PvP, especially if I don't PvP that much, then full loot is a major problem. For me, for the game, for the other players.

If gear is easily replaceable and there IS NO great amazing loot, then full loot is no big deal, and many people won't care.

But I haven't seen a single solution that doesn't run straight to one of those conclusions. Great gear = full loot being a bad thing.

 

The End.

 

Exactly why those that want full loot, and are being realistic about it, are also against having hard to obtain gear.

Also the reason originally given by RG for not having full loot. He wants gear to matter, not in the sense that it's hard to get, but in the sense that the more the player keeps using the same piece of gear, the more powerful that piece of gear becomes for him (and him alone) through a familiarity process; that would make losing that piece of gear too harsh, so the original idea was to not have gear looting.

 

For my part, it has to do with the fact that love of gear leads to pathological game play. People with a horde of enchanted gear in their bank that they use neither for PvP nor PvE. If players work at perfecting their character and not their gear, you don't see that kind of behavior.

This is a variation on love of gear, but one that included built inobsolescence. Yes, you become more and more attuned to a piece of gear, but over time, from what Garriott has in mind, that gear becomes less durable and harder and more expensive to maintain. Eventually, the trade off between having the advantage offered by the gear and the trouble and expense of maintaining that gear is not longer to your advantage. Players may be immortal in SotA, but gear is not.

 

At which point, I think that RG is right, I want my gear to be slightly special, I don't want to be stripped naked in death, and that's how I want to play. IF I'm gonna be looted naked and dry, my intestines used for bow and violin strings, my skin crafted into beermugs, then the only thing that's going to entice me to risk that is if I don't lose hours or weeks worth of character advancement. If I just lose a preset portion of my carried wealth, I might. But personally, if I have to have a "low rent" PvP outfit that I can afford to risk, I'll risk it a lot less. Just like I don't keep a secondary car for when I drive into the bad part of town. Those areas where I seriously think my car might get vandalized, I don't drive to. At all. I don't feel like I'm missing out.

 

That happens when the gear can be lost; AFAIK most players dislike losing things so much they would rather never take the risk, even if this means never actually using the gear they cherish.

I'm like that, BTW. Anything that is hard to get but can be lost I either leave in the bank, never to actually use; or, alternatively, I treat rare and expensive gear as merely easy cash, something to be sold at the first opportunity, something that I should never attempt to use myself. I only use things that I either can't lose no matter what, or else that I can easily replace with identical copies; if that makes the game boring, perhaps due to risking out better gear being necessary to bring down grind times, I leave the game rather than change my ways.

I believe that will have a similar effect to traditional gear loss; players stockpiling that kind of powerful, but hard to repair, gear and never actually using it. It's likely what I will do, either that or else mathematically determine how much I have to use the gear in order to have the best (monetary) return on my investment in crafting the gear, and use that formula to objectively determine when to just melt down my old gear and make something new.

BTW, in games I consciously attempt to block myself from ever getting attached to anything that can be lost, because I'm fully aware that I can never bring myself to risk, or use up, anything that I became attached to, and would rather stop playing than risk losing it. Which is why I would treat gear under RG's proposed decay + familiarity system as a math problem to solve, exactly to distance myself emotionally from it, to reduce the gear in my mind to something unimportant, disposable. The side effect is that forcing myself into that mindset completely removes any excitement from gearing (or, by extension, crafting), but it's either that or not playing the game at all.

 

If you keep that stuff in your bank, what is the point of having it? It serves the same purpose as if you were to load you bank vault up with vendor trash.

 

Which is why I often sell that stuff instead without bothering to even see how they look on my character. Or, if the items are bound in some way, I might even treat them as vendor trash.

It's the same I do with limited use, über powerful items in some games; bombs that wipe the screen, items that confer me ridiculous amounts of power for a small time, etc. I hate using them due to their limited nature, so I typically either keep them the whole game or else sell them right away (if possible). Or, if inventory space is at a premium, I might even waste them or throw them away right after obtaining the item just to open up space for the kind of permanent item I prefer.

I can deal with losing things, or limited uses for things that can't be replaced or are hard to replace, in the real world, but it's not fun. It's not a feeling that I'm willing to deal with in my "fun" time. So I do whatever I can to avoid it, up to and including ignoring aspects of the game that involve it, or leaving a game that forces me to go through it.

 

Something that I really enjoy using is items that have a cooldown on use effect, such that carrying or equipping them, and thus giving up the inventory or item slot space for them, gives me additional options in character powers. Assuming a decent variety of such items exists, I can further customize my character build by collecting the correct items. Once again, if such things are IN SotA, and I have to work to get them, and then there is a chance that if I am flagged for PvP someone will kill me and steal them, I will avoid that at even great cost. As sources of actual powers and abilities, such things would likely have become part of my standard powers and behaviors, perhaps even a core part of my build. I would NOT be happy running without them, especially if there were not some epic reward for such risk. I do not consider the sensation of risk to BE a reward, perhaps because I get enough of that sensation on the job, I want my fun time to be relaxing and relatively controlled.

 

A description of a similar issue, with plenty of examples, can be seen at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse .

Basically, whenever an item is either limited use or can be lost, and is either hard or impossible to replace, it has a good chance of never being used at all, no matter how incredibly awesome the item actually is. Seems like it's a very common issue.