Hiding versus Invisibility

The problem with removing them from the perception of the client itself is that they are now outside the realm of precalculated conditions. Normally, the client is constantly watching me as I move, looking for area effects that I step into or out of, area effects that I carry with me (such as, oh, say, a passive detect hidden skill) and sharing these with other clients. When I pass by some hidden player, the clients check one another to see if something should happen. Like me detecting them. If they are so hidden that my client cannot see they are there at all, then no check is made to see if I notice them.

I respect the desire to stifle cheaters, but ultimately, it will always be a battle of how much we want them punished vs how much they want to cheat, and he that is most willing to make sacrifices will win.

 

I wanted to add to Vjek's comment about other senses.

My first thought reading this thread is that yeah, invisibility and camouflage might not work against a dragon, and many other varieties of monsters/NPCs..

As he said, several creatures rely on other senses, such as smell/taste, hearing, and even feel (heat radiation/infrared)

In addition, some things see differently than we do. Frogs are known for seeing motion. And there's all new monsters and aliens in this game that could have completely different senses and ways of hearing/seeing etc..

None of that really matters when this thread seems to be primarily focusing on PVP combat though. except.. perhaps if there's magic and skills to hide, maybe there can be magic/skills/science to assist others in enhancing their senses to notice someone who is hiding.

 

You would only be removed from the perception of other people's clients, not your own client, so movement calculations calculations can still be performed by your client, and if and when you start moving or are revealed, that information can be relayed to other clients normally. Your client still knows where you are. Only other clients are being kept in the dark.

Even if the other client doesn't know where you are, it is still relaying information to your client on AOE data so the effects can be displayed correctly on your client even if you are stealthed, so if you are affected by another AOE spell, your client will know it, and that will probably disrupt your hiding/invisibility, thus revealing you. The other client also relays to your client data on it's use of detect hidden techniques, and your client can do the calculation to see if that detect hidden effort will be successful or not.

 

UO had hiding right. I wouldn't be opposed to a system similar to that. The only thing I don't like about the camouflage idea is that I feel that people with higher resolution displays will have an unfair advantage.

 

I'm all for the "hiding in shadows" a la D&D as opposed to your rogue character just vanishing like he's invisible. I don't know how the mechanics of that would work but it may make stealthy characters more challenging and more fun to play.

 

I never considered (or knew) of the technical problems (thanks vjek-good explanation) associated with my original proposal. It must be frustrating to be a game programmer. I recall talking to some of the UO devs during one of the UO conventions. Many great ideas were offered and their most frequent reply was "Oh, that will be exploited and abused in no time."

 

My own client isn't the one that's calculating your effect seeing me. That's what your system is doing. And neither can do the calculation if they aren't communicating about such things as the range of your senses, the direction you are facing, my location, my current action, etc...

If you literally block one computer from communicating, the network is no longer able to function. If you only block one subject, then the network won't function in regards to that subject.

 

I'm going to presume you're not a programmer and have never written a network application before.

What you're describing are not impediments to a properly written network application. The problem I've described is not a new one. It's existed as since at least 1996, and there have been hacks and fixes put in place for this issue since then until today. In many MMO's, today, players that are hidden or invisible are removed from visibility or awareness of all other clients until such time as the server sends an update that is required due to what you're talking about.

To re-iterate: Old problem. Proven solutions readily available. As long as Portalarium is aware, this is a non-issue.

 

I'm going to presume you either ARE a programmer, or have at least dabbled in network programming. I'll defer to your experience on what the computer can and cannot do. As you say, if there are fixes to this, and Portalarium implements them, well and good. My main point is that any system that can be made can be broken, any network accessible from the internet can be hacked, and if someone wants to implement an "I see you" cheat badly enough, he will.

What I originally said was that the issue would come down to a question of how badly the programmers wanted to prevent the hack vs how badly the cheater wants to use it.

 

I feel like camouflage would only work in a first person perspective. The third person makes it to easy to reveal.

 

I think that would depend on how you hid. If you are playing with perspective, hiding in the foreground and hoping the guy looks right past you, then your target's movement would reveal you. No need for 3rd person view. If you are hiding IN the bushes, just using camouflage to blend in, that should work from all angles and perspectives. As long as you didn't leave your butt hanging out the back end of the bush.

 

I think @Gaznox is talking about hiding that doesn't make you invisible, but just obscures you slightly. It is a valid point, in that you only have about a 60 degree field of view without turning your head, but with the third person view point used by SotA, you have a 360 degree FOV all around you.

 

That 360 degree field only becomes available if I rotate the camera. That's pretty well analogous to turning my head.

Fun fact. did you know that if you stop moving your eyes, (and your head, neck, etc) that you will go temporarily blind? The human brain processes the visual environment around it by constantly scanning back and forth and comparing the images. Technically, nothing of what you perceive is actually what your eyes are seeing. It's how your brain edits it all together.

This means that while a 3rd person perspective DOES let me look at the back of my own head, it isn't otherwise that different for processing the environment. My angle of vision is coming from behind where I am, but I am still looking around, glancing from side to side while maintaining a nominal direction of facing, I can turn my head...

If someone's hiding mechanism is dependent on the idea that I can't or won't look to the side, I would call that highly unrealistic. I'd expect them to really have to hide.

 

in my real-world experience, what matters with camouflage, is whether you remember to close your eyes when the enemy is near. Them bright whites are a dead giveaway!

 

That would be AWESOME! Imagine, you are running along, when suddenly you notice a pair of eyes on the ground near you! Suddenly three more sets of eyes stand out from the bushes around you, as a four player ambush springs out! I wouldn't even mind the dieing as much, if that could be done it would be hella cool.

 

Not true. You can see things that are behind you without rotating the camera. Try doing that without turning your head.

 

Likewise of course, the more cautious player could actually be watching for the telltales at range, and react appropriately when spotting them.

I really like the idea that there be tiny graphical signs that someone is there, and if I'm actually watching for them I can note them.

Because, honestly, it's REALLY hard to just sneak up on someone who is paying attention to the environment. The way a lot of games have allowed you to "stealth mode" and then walk right up to your target before jumping out to stab them is VERY unrealistic.

 

Wow, massive points for missing the point.

I can look around, Owain. I do it constantly. I do it when I drive. I hope you do to. The thing that would be unrealistic would be limiting my screen display to only show the 60 degree arc in my facing.

 

Most of the hiders I encountered in UO were trying to avoid me, not sneak up on me. The skill can be used both ways.

 

You also miss the point. If a hider is only obscured rather than invisible, then in real life you HAVE to have your head on a swivel unless you are looking directly at them. Not so in SotA, particularly if you pull the eye point back far. You then have an expansive 360 degree view around you, and you don't have to turn your head at all. That is why obscuration as a method to simulate hiding is bad game design.