How do you feel about the land rush? Would an alternative lot distribution option be viable?

My aggravation with the whole thing (especially concerning the housing bubble thing) is that while it may end up being financially successful for the folks flipping lots for money, will it be beneficial for the game itself? I hated the game of banks and lenders trading paper in the real world; I'm not really looking forward to seeing the same thing when I just want to enjoy the game, and a lot of folks just want to place their character's home.

 

I read your post in another thread about this, and it was excellent. It was excellent because you are focusing on one part of the current reality that you disagree with. Unlike a number of people that are trying to throw the baby out with the bath water. You're not saying the land rush is bad, nor are you suggesting they get rid of it. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that with the introduction of POTs, this changed the playing field and we should re-examine the way the land rush works. That's a fair approach and good feedback. The baby and the bath water people aren't saying that though. They're just piggybacking on to anything that looks smells or tastes like an attack on the land rush.

But let's look at the impact of POTs for a moment. I agree with one thing you said, POTs did change the dynamics of the land rush and allowed the risk of using a higher tier lot to claim a lower tier one almost non-existent. However, this risk if you exclude POTs is virtually the same. Take your LOTM example. Say there are 40 LOTM's. Those castle lots are they for them to choose later regardless of what they choose during the land rush because no one else in the game will ever have a castle deed (castle and keep deeds are exclusive to people that pledge at the LOTM and DUKE levels). Still, what changed was that people with POTs who would normally have no intention of living anywhere but their POT can now participate in the land rush for the sole reason of selling the lot they secure for a profit while always knowing that they can live in their POT at any time.

There are only 230 to 300 POT owners, not all of them can be LOTM or DUKE tier pledges. So we really have to ask ourselves what's the impact of 100 or so people doing this? Is it perception? It just doesn't *feel* right to us? Is it jealously? We just don't like having a handful of people game the system to their advantage? Or is this where some people say "it's just not right"? I would argue that being a POT owner wasn't something that was given for free. It was something that people paid extra money for. It doesn't seem wrong to me that people would use their POT to avoid the risk of having no where to go, that's inherent in what POTs are. The part of the equation I agree with you on however is that POTs changed the way that speculation worked and that impacts everyone that doesn't have a POT (even the LOTM's).

So the one area I think your argument has some legs and could receive support from even some of the higher backers is there. The original pledgers that did not also by a POT might have a legitimate gripe that they're now at an unfair disadvantage during the land rush because other players have effectively lowered their risk and can take more chances during the land rush. I have previously suggested that there be a moratorium on trading or moving from lots that are selected during the land rush to avoid massive speculation from people trying to "flip" houses. I think this would solve the unfair advantage and restore the perception that if you're participating in the land rush you're also going to have to use that lot for a number of months (lets say the first 90 days) before you can trade it. That increases the risk for speculators, but it doesn't fundamentally change the land rush. I've been suggesting this for two years, btw, even before POTs existed.

But I'm strongly against removing the ability of higher tier pledges to select lower tier lots. That, as far as I'm concerned, is off the table as a valid and fair solution.

 

Here's a suggestion:

During the first windows, only LotMs are rushing. During this time, only unlock Castle lots for claiming.

Once the first Duke window opens, then LotMs can use their Castle deeds to claim Keep lots, because the Keep lots are now unlocked for claiming. But no Dukes or LotMs can place anywhere smaller than Keep and Castle lots yet, because that's all that's open at this time.

Finally, the first Baron window opens, which unlocks City lots for claiming. Now the first barons, along with all the Dukes and LotMs can claim City lots with their respective equal or larger-sized deeds.

And so forth. So if a higher pledge level wants to claim a lower level lot with their higher level deed, they can, but they must wait until the window which that lot-size is unlocked.

This should help a bit, because at least the speculation for lots are happening at the right time for each size lot.

Between this, and some incentives as Spoon suggested in the past for either not participating, or using the appropriate lot-size for your deed, should sway many speculators to do the 'right' thing.

 

As long as people can bring better arguments to support their ideas. I have no problem reading more thoughts and change any of my stances if they make sense.

At this point, it just seems to me that the chance you will get the lot you want would never be 100% chance whether you want to live there or sell for a good price later regardless of what lot selection process it's gonna be at the last wipe.

For examples:
1) With current lot selection process, even if you are in the highest tier pledges, someone else from the same pledge may still snatch your lot.
2) For web-based first come first serve reservation, someone with better internet or timing may still get your lot.
3) Free for all land rush, those who live in Texas will probably get the shot at it. Someone couldn't patch fast enough or if they have issue with the game clients would probably miss the chance as well.

I don't think there will be a truly fair method in this. Some people will get the spot they want, some won't. By putting heat on those who paid out of their pockets to support the game to even exist in the first place just seems counterproductive IMO.

 

miracle, this is the most balanced solution i have heard yet.

well done

+1

 

Of course I agree.

But, please, be careful. Even if I got the meaning of your opinion, with the way this sentence is phrased, it seems that Ancestors (or anyone under LOTM tier, really) didn't put any of their money on the line, thus are "unworthy" of being considered productively.

I can tell you that even the lowest tier, with their $275 contribution, are supporting the existence of the game far, far, FAR more than *any* other game in existence. Such a price tag - even if it pales in front of a $12'000 one - is still inhumanely high by nowadays standards.

Never, ever lose this perspective, for the love of everything that's holy and right. Please.

 

I actually addressed that in the post you linked. See for the LOTM to pull such a stunt they would have to do it collectively. If a handful of them said naw screw that I want to live in Owls head and I'm happy with that, all the other LOTM automatically lose their shot at Owlshead because they held off. Even if they did all agree on it they'd be taking the risk some of them just agreed to it so they'd have less competition in their land rush because the others believed it would be safe to wait. That's a huge risk compared to POT members who have their lot secured no matter what without needing to organise or get group consent of anyone (let alone 40 people)

For arguments sake lets say it's 100. That's more then are: Town, City, Keep and Castle lots COMBINED in NPC towns. Even including water lots. If we say there are 300 pot owners you can almost include all the NPC village lots in that to. Just for POT owners who don't want to live there. They might not all be Dukes or Barons but I bet many are at least Citizen. That's a huge chunk of the market up for grabs to land prospectors... Like the entire chunk of land.
But it's actually worse then that. Because it's not just the POT owners that are a concern. If I don't own a POT but I'm part of a guild that has one, or I'm friends with a POT owner, or I even just approach a POT owner and make a private arrangement to have them reserve a lot for me in their POT while I prospect... The effect is the same. I can prospect and that reserved lot in the POT I want to live in will stay reserved for when I'm ready to claim it. That opens up the door to not just POT owners, but EVERYONE who wants to prospect and is happy living in a POT... Which is way more then are available lots in NPC towns.

One solution is saying okay well then POT owners can't reserve lots for themselves or their friends, so POTs are part of the land rush too and if you miss out you lost the gamble. But this is a ridiculous solution, as POT owners paid for that privileged too. So yeah it's a sticky wicket to address.

I agree with the second part but I don't think the rest of the suggestion does anything to alleviate the issue since A: you'll want to sit on the lot for a while for the value to appreciate a bit anyway and B: That POT lot isn't going anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if most prospectors planned to sit on the lot until a couple of week past the official launch to sell early next year when the market will probably peak. They can save up gold (if hey have prime realestate their vendor will help with this) to buy a regular lot deed and start living in the POT while they wait or even if we prevent that they can live in house in the POT that has it's permission setting set to co-owner or equivalent (or rent a room if that's in buy then). No the only logical conclusion of that strategy would be if you place a rent free deed somewhere outside a pot, you can't live in a POT by any means until episode 2 is released (probably when the Novian housing market will crash)... And that is a ridiculously draconian solution. It's a difficult issue to tackle. The playing field has been hugely changed and the simple solutions snap back too far in the other direction.

Something truly fair would be very difficult but some solutions are fairer then others. The current plan there is no land rush. Even group 1 gets 30 minutes to get in position by the house sign they want, then it's a race of who can click the fastest once the timer ticks over. So the current plan most closely matches option 2, which frustrates me because being in Australia, there's no way to win a ping war no matter how much I paid for priority. If it was option 3 at least I could strategise an optimal route to the house I want and there's a chance people on a faster connection might hit more random encounters on the way, so the luck factor would level the playing field a bit among people in my own tier.

I don't think anyone is really doing that. Every one with a stake in this debate paid at least 10-20 times the retail price of the game already.

People who paid more should have priority as that what was promised. But when it comes to living in an NPC town now you aren't just competing against other people who paid the same as you who want to live there... Which sucks as part of the motivation for paying more to get higher lot selection priority was to try and dodge the crap with lot prospectors.

 

Well said.

 

There's going to be a fair amount of speculation in this game, that's what the land rush is, isn't it?

I don't think we're going to get around speculative purchases during the land rush. What I keep reading is that for some reason the people that paid more money shouldn't have the first opportunity to speculate, but I haven't read a good reason why. Does anyone have a good reason? I mean, if I pay more to go see a Browns game then I'll get a better seat than someone that paid less, right? I can even take my tickets and sell them to people on the street, right?

At what point do the people that paid less than I did have a legitimate complaint that we need to "fix" making it so I can't trade or sell the ticket I paid for? Please advise.

 

I agree, it is what it is at this point. That's also why I don't foresee any radical changes to what's already been announced, since any going back and mucking around with the scheduling the closer we get to the actual July deadline, the more and more headache and drama that Port will end up having to deal with.

I do, strongly, agree that the larger majority of the players will be more influential from a long-term financial standpoint, especially since the main additional income for this game is likely to come from addons and new pledges, so that's important to keep sight of for the future. As I've said before though, I don't support or think Port really would win any brownie points from anyone by going back and reversing features that high level backers did pay for in good faith. They dropped a lot of cash on the game upfront, so I'm not unappreciative that Port does give them some extra kudos during this.

 

I don't know when you've got two people who paid the same amount of money for a shot at a house, most benevolent leader would give it to the person who actually wants to live in the house. King Solomon, cut the baby in half, etc. and I agree, on equal footing it should go to the person who actually wants to live there and prospectors can sell the left over houses in their tier allotment for cash (of which they will still reap in heaps without upsetting equal contributors). In a perfect world anyway. But the real estate market was pushed by the devs as a selling point for adding more to your pledge. So prospectors have every right to take a shot at prime pickings they paid more for... You know, where they did so.

Unfortunately even that isn't the whole equation. When I first saw I shook my head an dismissed it. But upon reflecting on it Miracle Dragons post is a much fairer solution to the current debate of how to handle high end backers claiming smaller lots:

See the whole idea that you could use a larger deed to claim a smaller lot had nothing to do with speculation. The lot selection process hadn't even been formulated yet. So the idea behind it was PURELY, yes, allow high end backers who want to LIVE in smaller lots to do so. That way you can pledge more to support the game and still live in that Lighthouse you like so much.
MD's idea is much more in keeping with that sentiment.
Similarly it was never promised pledge more to go first at claiming anything. If you go back, yes right from the start they said if you pay a few dollars more, you'll get priority over other people in your tier... Still true.
People who actually want to live in that lot size, how paid the more go at the same time as everyone else who paid the maximum amount to live in that lot size. Prospectors get the same priority they were always promised for their lot size (which lets be honest will be worth more anyway, the only reason this became a consideration is because claiming smaller lots retroactively became a sure thing, even though that wasn't the intent).

It's a fairer solution all around...
For the claiming a smaller lot size issue... It doesn't really address the risk free prospecting from the safety of a POT. But I think this is some good progress never the less.

 

I totally agree with this. I'm sure Portalarium is very aware of this too. But I think the path to long-term financial success is to make a good game. Let's face it, if the only thing that can make this a good game is having one of the "best" spots for foot traffic, that ship has already sailed. No game with limited housing is going to have 70% of the population that thinks "I got a great spot to put out a vendor!"

If you look at a town like Aerie, there's a few "town square" type areas where the NPC merchants gather and traffic is naturally directed through. It seems to me that active players that want to participate in trade should not have to formulate their business strategy on lot location alone. What I'd prefer to see here is a way to let players with vendors, pay a flat fee that sends their vendor to the "town market" they live in. Instead of paying a public vendor taxes on individual items, this flat fee would create a way to compete with any merchant in the town so that location would never be the deciding factor in success. That way all the vendors are basically present that wish to participate. This would cut out much of the "best spot" mentality for those serious about trade.

I believe this would make all of this land rush stuff a lot less emotional for some. I also think it would be something really nice to have for the game overall. Allowing anyone with a vendor to basically focus on the strength of their products and services without worrying that some one in the land rush will always have an insurmountable advantage based on location.

 

That's the problem with the term "fair" and the subjective perception of it. What's fair to me may not be to you, or vice versa. Obviously, the people who backed high end packages (like the LOTM, Dukes, etc) all did so with certain expectations, based on the information provided by the Developers at the time. Now that the land rush schedule has been announced, would it really be "fair" to continue to make radical changes to those expectations?

We can certainly debate and discuss the impacts on us as players, but ultimately, the decision of "fairness" rests with the Developers. For myself, I think it's about as fair as it could be, given that they have given us their schedule and outline, so we are informed ahead of time to be prepared.

 

That may have been the spirit of why the devs allowed it. But people were speculating from the beginning. It was probably a half second after it was known that you could pledge high and claim low that someone said "I'm going to take that village lot next to the bank and the moongate!" So I don't think that this is a good argument.

I see the logic and understand how it's acceptable to someone that is in a lower tier. But this is messing with people's money. Someone that is speculating is still someone that is backing the game at an extremely high level. They should still get what they paid for, regardless of their motives. Both RG and DS are on record as saying that they fully envision some people will be pledging purely for the investment opportunity. I can't remember the exact words they used, but basically they were saying "yeah, we know some people will buy into this purely to speculate." So I don't see how we can change the rules on those people now and expect that to go well. Yes, they're a smaller fraction of people, but that doesn't make it right.

 

I don't think MD proposal is a radical change to what is proposed. No one backed Baron 3 back when it was agreed you could claim smaller lots with the intent of OH YEAH! I'm going to grab me some town lot before anyone can even get a shot at it! No that wasn't even on the table at the time. They backed Baron 3 so they could have a shot at a city lot before Baron 2. I mean at the time we were actually under the impression people who pledged $1002 would go before $1001. Significantly more separation is the housing rush groups. Obviously this is way more complicated then when the devs thought when they first proposed that so what we have is kind of a compromise to keep to the intent of the promise. When the whole, using a city deed to claim a town deed thing was proposed the Dev's were against it. We talked them into it on the premise if I want to live in a lighthouse I should be able to live in lighthouse even though I paid more. So they agreed. The intent of that promise was never that you will be able to undercut all the smaller lot tier backers. That whole idea didn't even come up until much more recently. We are already compromising on what was pitched. What's the best compromise?

 

If a LOTM wants to live in a light house today but wants to sell that lot tomorrow, that shouldn't be allowed?

Why is the LOTM being subjected to rules that don't make any sense so that other people that paid less can try to take the lighthouse spot? I don't get the logic. It's certainly not a compromise. It's people that paid less getting more than they paid for.

 

Maybe that's the crux of the thing? I've said before, I'm not a huge housing proponent, but I do think the Devs have been very open towards feedback and discussions that have shaped how both housing and POTs have changed over the course of the development. That was all prior to the actual land rush/final wipe announcement, though, and the schedule that has been put into place. Speaking for me, I don't really think it needs further compromise, and I honestly feel any attempts to further fiddle and tweak at this point just opens it up to more headache.

It's going to be unfair to some folks, that's a given. That's actually somewhat the intention from what I've seen and gathered from even Richard's comments during the Telethons and things. They want people to be scrambling over each other fighting for the resources. Do I agree with it? Not really, but that's also just my opinion, and I recognize there are PLENTY of other folks who do.

Again, it falls back to Portalarium to decide if it's something that needs to be further addressed. From my viewpoint, I'd rather they focus on other fish to fry at this point.

 

If the main problem is people reselling lots then there is an easy way to solve that. Simply, make it impossible to sell a lot without it being announced to the world and having a required lead time. Nobody ever said that lots could be resold anyway. That is nothing but wishful thinking.

That said, I still believe it is legitimate to grab a lot for yourself. So, higher level pledges should be allowed to opt to use either (but not both) of the deeds during the land rush.

 

Devs have already stated the 2nd deeds will be usable during the last phase of the land rush (along side the add-on store deeds).. so those are already accounted for. Only the large primary deeds will be usable for the primary placement.

 

it isn't an issue..

due to my pledge, i'm capable of claiming lot(s) of X size and below. - if i were to participate in the land rush, which i will not (because, Reasons), when my time comes i should be able to claim anything that is left within X size and below, in any npc town i wish.

due to your pledge, you are also capable of claiming lot(s) of X size and below. - if you were to participate in the land rush, when your time comes you should be able to claim anything that is left within X size and below, in any npc town you wish.

what is unfair about it?

fair or not, it is exactly this: we live in a capitalistic society, and we are participating by choice in a game that is just a part of something larger, a business. some business rules will always apply to those providing the funding. by participating in the business, you have agreed to the terms. - again, non issue.