How/When are the virtues going to be added?

I feel like some of this is like a strange Rorschach test.

What kind of picture do you see?

I see a bird.

Nope, it's a bunch of ants eating a water mellon. Minus 25 virtue points for you.

 

Well what can I say? This is one area where I happen to disagree with Richard's take, or at least implementation.

The way Richard describes his vision is rather unfortunate and unsustainable. If my character was me I'd be running around going "how the hell do I get home?!?" You don't really RP being yourself.. it's practically a contradiction by definition. Rather to boil it down in simpler terms.. the real intent isn't that "you are you".. but it is that you play 'honestly' and consistently.

How many players are going to use their real names? How many are going make decisions based on how they would actually behave in a given situation? None of that is really relevant. What Richard wants is consistent behavior from players that is honest and not just min/maxing the system. You don't have to be from Earth to do that.

I will honor the spirit of vision.. but this letter of the law stuff just isn't happening.. in many ways it can't happen. Everyone who choses not to use their own name.. their own gender etc.. is already deviating from "you are your character".

 

People are, of course, allowed to play any way they want, but I think Richard's real, actual, honest to goodness intent is for you to play you, as if you were actually transported. He's said that a number of times, and I think he means it. He wants you to play you, and to make decisions as you would actually make them, and conduct yourself as you would act. Yes, roleplaying yourself. I'm sure that is what he really means.

We could ask him for comment.

I think I will.

 

ok so i will change my story to "fit the mold" and lets take out PvP and weapons all together because i am fairly sure 99% of us dont know how to use them any ways... lets add guns because I for one know how to use them at least.

 

I'm pretty sure if I were transported to a world with undead and kobolds, I'd pick up a sword and learn to use it.
I'm ok with taking PvP out.
I'm also ok with guns being added.

 

But why? Because he wants you to play honestly. "You are you" is an easy way to convey that concept.. but in a literal sense it is not a sustainable goal. You can't force RP on the mind of the player.. and as such you can't them to follow that vision in the literal sense.

From a game design perspective what is the difference between "you are you" and "honest" gameplay? Except most players aren't criminals. Game mechanics doesn't even support "you are you".. how many PKers would actually go out committing murder if they thought they could get away with it? I would wager not very many. Just PvPers in general.. how is that making decisions as if your character is really you?

Even Richard must readily acknowledge that players are not going to behave as if they were really in the game world and the game is not designed for them to do so. But to behave consistently with how they players likes to play.. that is the goal. If the player prefers to be virtuous.. or unvirtueous then that's how they should play and not game the system as it were. Not knowing the immediate consequences is a big part of that.

 

if you were transported to such a world you would most likely be dead before you ever learned

 

LOL

Exactly, I have a mortgage to pay and kids to take care of. I need to be at work on Monday morning and oh yeah I don't think my life insurance policy is going to cover "Death by Kobold War Hammer".

I'm perfectly ok with playing "myself" but it does take quite a bit of disbelief to accomplish. Almost as much as me being someone else.

 

But in New Britannia, we Earthlings don't stay dead, so eventually I'd learn to die less frequently.

 

and yet.. death I imagine will still hurt.. a lot.

Here's a biggie to think about. How many players would be willing to simply abandon everything they ever knew? Friends.. family.. home.. electricity? and say 'oh this other medieval world looks interesting.. I'll just drop everything and go live over there'.

I imagine after being run through, crushed and chopped to bits a few dozen times it might all get rather annoying. I'd sure be happy enough to stay home, chat on the computer and sleep in my own bed rather than risk getting killed in gruesome and painful ways.. and this is when I already know how to use a sword.

 

I agree with you, Sir Frank. I believe that is clearly RG's intent, and I think it affords us a great amount of latitude from an RP standpoint. For one, there's no "out of character" talk possible if we're playing ourselves. I can talk about the super bowl and what happened at work today and I'm still technically "in character". I think that's a very convenient gift granted by RG and I'm thankful for that (since people are not very good at keeping all that stuff quiet). This way, everyone is technically roleplaying even if they're not trying to. I really like that.

The part where all this breaks down for me is the idea that suddenly I'm supposed to be really stupid about the fact that NPC's are not real. I mean, if I'm playing myself, I think I'd notice that there were a lot of people in this world that had a limited vocabulary, didn't understand anything I ever said, stood in the same spot all day doing the same thing, and generally were more like very unintelligent robots.

I'm a bit insulted that for some reason my interactions with these robots is being "judged". And the Oracle, let's just imagine that I care about what the Oracle says for a moment. If I can just log off and go back to my real world at any time, what's my motivation for doing anything the way the Oracle wants me to do it?

Ever seen the movie Groundhogs's Day? I think it would be fairly natural for people that suddenly find themselves in a world where they can't die and actions don't have much meaning to completely change what they would do on a daily basis. It's very confusing to me to see why would would be judged using a real world virtue system inside a virtual world that has no hold on us.

So if you ask RG anything, I hope you ask him that.

 

Of course there's OOC talk.. "AFK".. "biobreak.. brb" "I just got home" "It's raining where I am".. plenty of ways to talk OOC even if you're from Earth.. also it makes absolutely no sense for you to be able to go back and forth at will. If the Titans can't figure out how to return home, what makes you think anyone else can when ever they choose?

There must be some separation between the player and the character. Otherwise you're just sitting at your computer playing a game. RP requires a lot of filling in the blanks and accepting what isn't literally there. Your character cannot tell the difference between an NPC and another player.. the fact that YOU the player know is irrelevant.. your character does not.

 

Normally, I'd say you're right and the player fills in the blanks, ignores the obvious (I'm playing a game) and helps the immerssion. But when I'm playing myself, that becomes somewhat harder and somewhat easier depending on what's going on.

Particularly if you're judging me as a person using my interactions with NPC's. I find this to be really REALLY weird.

Don't steal money from that NPC! Why? They're not real.

Don't kill that NPC! Why? They just respawn and have all their things and they don't even know it happened.

Meanwhile, the virtue system doesn't seem to care if I treat real people like crap. It makes no sense.

 

Another problem I have with the virtue system is that it appears to be designed to put people in situations where there are no good choices.

Here's a famous experiment that will probably feel very familiar when we're done playing this game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

You can really make these types of choices even more difficult by making the (1) person the player's best friend or a relative or a child. And in the words of Rush, "Even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

In some ways, I kind of like the juxtaposition of having two choices that make you lean one way despite another. The more I think about it, this is much better than just having choices of Virtue vs. choices of Non-Virtue. For example if they give you a choice between Love and Courage. Or Courage and Truth. That makes sense to me because it's more quantifiable and less qualifiable, which the NPC's seem ill equipped to deliver on.

So maybe that's how they plan to do it. That would work for me. I hope that's what's going on here. What has me worried is when they talk about cursing at NPC's being a non-virtuous act. That's too black and white and suggests that no NPC on the planet would enjoy a good cursing. I find that hard to believe. Plenty of real life humans find it rather pleasant.

 

That.. is not RP. That is gaming the system and exactly the opposite of Richard's intent.

You're not RPing you playing a game.. It's "you" in a different world. Even if you are playing "you".. it is still necessary to separate you the player from you the character.

If you literally found yourself in a real New Britannia.. you wouldn't be thinking "hey this merchant isn't real.. he's an NPC so why not do whatever the hell I like since it doesn't matter to anyone".

But here's something else to ponder.. not even Richard.. plays himself. Richard and Starr have both commented on how in many ways their game characters are opposites of their real selves. Lord British, the founder of the virtues, patron of THE Avatar and benevolent king.. vs Richard who wants to see cannibalism in game along with the ability to kill children. Lord British is NOT the real Richard Garriott. The two are very different.

 

I'm not sure that's entirely true. But the rest of your post I agreed with.

 

Well I think I could've been more specific with that particular comment but I see no reason to dwell on it.

Besides, we've rather strayed from the topic somewhat.

I've never liked the virtue tests.. they try to force too many assumptions on the players. I do however like that the game itself won't tell you the immediate result of your actions. I suppose the real question is what is going on behind the scenes?

I hate the idea of gaining one virtue at the expense of another such as the original 2 choice virtue test. To throw out an example..

The question of being given an uncounted sum of gold to deliver and coming across a beggar. The question is compassion or honor. Give the beggar a coin knowing it won't be missed or honorably delivery the gold.

Why the hell can't I give the beggar some of MY own money? The way I see it.. I can be both compassionate AND honorable that way. Besides that, it's not my gold to give away.. if I give the beggar someone else's gold.. does that not make me a thief? and the beggar an unwitting accomplice? How is that virtuous?

A real test of virtue should not force you to make an unvirtuous decision I the name of virtue. You should have the freedom to make your own choice.

 

Well here's where we disagree. I think that's an excellent way to perform the test. In fact I think it's the only way to do it. It provides relative perspective that otherwise would or could, be misinterpreted.

 

It is not a true test of the person. It assumes that you either can't, or won't give your own money and would rather steal someone else's. Giving your own money is perfectly viable 3rd option. A perfectly viable 4th option may be to take some of the coin for yourself.

It's not a true test of character without all possible options available. I can't give a true and honest answer if that answer is not available to give.. worse when that answer (or lack thereof) is artificially forced on you. One might even argue that giving only the 2 choices doesn't allow you to be "you".

In pretty much every question even asked in a virtue test in Ultima.. I would have taken a perfectly viable 3rd choice.

 

Bowen I like and understand where you are coming from. The only problem with it is unless they make it where their is no options and just ask what would you do? then their is going to be those who wish for some other response then what they can chose from... but at least with this their is a choice to be made and not just told what you are.