Hybrid Combat System

SotA has backers that really want to see a single player game like U7. And while U7 is one of my favorite games of all time, combat was disappointing.

There are others who want UO-like combat.

And even more others who want combat to operate like a modern MMO, such as WOW.

There are other games (predominatently console games) with action/twitch controls, such as perhaps Batman: Arkham Asylum.

Instead of copying one wholesale (and no doubt disappointing a large chunk of your backers since they want very different things) I think SotA needs to think outside of the box and innovate.

Merely left or right-clicking on a target and then letting stat comparisons do the work doesn't feel heroic or fun. A WOW-style massive list of skills on multiple quickbars with cool-downs encourages repeating the same rotation forever. It is rote, tired and also a bit boring. Your eyes are on the quickbar, not on the supposed epic battle. Completely twitch controls can turn off some gamers, and minimizes the RPG/stat-elements.

I propose a combat system that can work with keyboard/mouse, a gamepad, or even touch controls on a theoretical future tablet port. It is meant to be a balance of all three.

1. Your ability to hit a target, and how much damage you do should be based on stats and a random factor more-so than twitch reflexes.

2. You should be able to select manuevers in a given moment, with a compromise between 4 quickbars of 12 slots (48 abilities!) in an MMO, and something like 4 attacks in a console-esque twitch switch. I propose 8 maneuvers you can have assigned for a given weapon.

3. The game remembers which manuevers are mapped for you any given weapon-type. When you pull out your bow, you have your archery manuevers. Switching to your staff means you use those manuevers.

4. The manuevers are tied to 4 buttons, and a modifier button.

With a keyboard/mouse combination, you have 1, 2, 3, and 4, modified with the left or right mouse button. Holding down the left-button and then hitting one queues up your basic attack. Conversely, holding down the right-button and then pressing 3 might queue up a "Pommel Attack" manuever.

With a gamepad, you can use left and right triggers in combation with the four traditional buttons (X, Y, A, B).

On a tablet, you can hold down one or two left fingers on your left hand, while swiping up, down, left or right on your right hand.

With this system, you're striking a balance between an interactive system that can feel tense/exciting, but doesn't require watching cooldowns on quickbars. You keep your eye on the action, and stats are still a major factor in combat, but not the only one.

 

Bear in mind some of us do not have young, nimble fingers. As an example I found I completely wasted $60 on the latest Laura Croft game because I cannot left-click right-click fast enough to prevent a boulder from crushing my character. It is a gating mechanism that backfired on me as a customer and will backfire from now on on new games that require young and nimble fingers. I will wait until I learn whether the design is so idiotic that an unnecessary mechanic irrelevant to the game will render my enjoyment null and void.

 

@Tibs - Absolutely. I think there should be a balance between "twitch" combat, and combat that completely plays itself out, especially if this is a game that people will continue to play for five years across the five episodes.

You don't want gameplay to be boring, nor so difficult that you turn off your core RPG fans.

 

@ Enderandrew, what you propose sounds interesting, although with all due respect I still believe that a UO-esque system of fully-customizable macros tailored to an individual's stats, items, and skills would hold the player's interest better in the long run.

As a realist, of course, it is likely that (as you said) no single group will be completely satisfied; some level of compromise is almost inevitable. That said, in regards to your proposed control scheme - it sounds do-able for combat moves, but how would it work for magic (assuming there are a large number of discrete, castable spells in the game? I'm assuming there will be, since well developed, highly polished magic systems have been critical components of past LB games.)

On the flip side, even if the SotA magic system isn't a "classic" Ultima -style scheme (I hope it is), how bad would it be if the spell mechanics were simply bastardized hot-bar "skills" with longer cooldowns and some flashy graphics widget, as is the case with 99% of current mmo's & crpg's out today? In other words, would your repertoire of "spells" be limited to a small number of mappable mouse/gamepad buttons or "hotbars" (again, just like every other game out today)? If this game is truly a spiritual successor to the Ultima series, LB & his Dev team would never allow that to happen.

One thing I definitely agree with you on is that tons of hotbars cluttering up the screen greatly diminishes one's immersion into the game universe. The player is reduced to tracking multiple hotbar cooldowns, and you're right - it gets to the point where we are kind of like lab rats pawing that food lever for pellet haha... click-fest.

 

There is a lot of discussion on the forums about UI and immersion. However, I like ender's concept- moving away from tried and failed combat styles is something I think we all want to see.
Regarding the finger dexterity issue, a certain amount of this cannot be avoided- however it can be reduced if there are a lot of options for customization, allowing the player to do what is easiest and most comfortable.

 

Sounds like Diablo/Guildwars 2/NWO but made for a controller. Was previously used as a cheap way to cut costs while giving off the assumption of full customization, as it added very little content. Surprised EA didn't piggy-back it.

Active targeting and blocking is emerging and it does seem interesting. Though I have to say if there's a way to incorporate the AoC combat styles it'd improve it (directional attacking). When I first started reading your post it seemed like the directional attack/combo system from AoC though, which was great.

 

I like my combat more action oriented. I know though that for a game to be successful, it's going to need some sort of balance with ease of use. While AoC's combat system offered a unique style and rather fun combo system, I'm wonder if your average gamer would find it a little too complex. And before talk starts about making it too easy, again, Balance.

The measure of success for this game is going to be with the amount of it's continuous player base. I don't want to see it too easy that i'll get bored, but at the same time, i don't want to see it too complicated to drive off potential monetary resources...errr....players.

I'm not a fan of the WoW whack-o-mole style combat. I would love to see player initiated dodging and blocking, but would still like to see some sort of special attack skill system to compliment a persons skill level with his/her weapon.

 

I would say that the real solution here is customizability. Got nimble fingers and a desire for adrenaline rush? Maybe a fast twitch hotkey combo system can not only be in place, but offer a *SLIGHT* bonus to your numbers. Maybe 2%? But you gotta enable it in the options menu, and you gotta be good at it.

Not so nimble? I myself have slight arthritis (yes, confirmed by xray and by rubbing a doctor on it) in the first knuckle of the trigger finger of my right hand. I'm 36. Thirty...six... Guess where I got the overuse of that joint? Game controllers. And MMO's, And probably typing, but I don't actually type that much. Or use that joint so much while typing. For those of us who aren't interested in using our reflex speed to determine the character's skills, a macro system. Even passive abilities.

If you think of it as a continuum, with twitch to the left and automacrobot on the right, a UI fixed at ANY point will dissapoint and frustrate players, but if the UI could be customized over a range, terminating where LB & crew figured enough was enough in each direction, with the player having the option of how his/her game played, you could probably catch most people.

After all, even if every single version has some degree of numeric bonuses, even if certain class/roles were best filled by certain UI builds, even if elitist groups emerged in the game that demanded a certain UI setup for membership, ultimately it's all just a UI, all controlling the same characters in the same game.

 

Only $60 Tibs? Lucky. I've spent hundreds on games that have brickwalled me because I'm not nimble enough. If it requires fast movement, key combos or precise timing then, for me, it is unplayable. It's talk like the OP that makes me afraid that SotA will become one more of those games I'm unable to play.

 

Forgive me for a little thread necromancy, but the demo video seemed to show combat that played itself out automatically (which was a bit disappointing). Has anything been said about the control scheme for combat? Are there any more thoughts on the scheme I proposed?

 

This.

Combat needs to reward skill, but skill doesn't have to mean twitch. Some twitch-advantage is inevitable and should thus be accounted for and built in, but you can have skill-based combat that rewards well thought-out builds and good decisions during the fight (assuming fights last a couple of minutes each and it's hard to one-shot each other) rather than super-speed clicking.

 

I would prefer combat that is less twitchy as well, and rewards good tactics. If I can attack a target from the flank rather than from the front, I should do more damage, and an attack from the rear should inflict even more damage. Additionally, strategy should be more important than tactics, but that applies to large scale combat rather than 1 v 1 fights.

 

I would say not more damage, but more accuracy. My sword won't cut deeper because it's striking your back, but your parry and block chances should be near zero (unless you have some sort of sixth sense) and your dodge should be severely reduced.

 

This is something I'd definitely want to see, be it implemented as damage or accuracy. It's pleasing to everyone:
1) It's realistic
2) It rewards skill for good PvP players
3) It lets players without superb reflexes still become skilled at the game.

In general making "skill at the game" about more than reading up about the best builds online and then having great twitch reflexes is a very good thing.

 

In the demo vid they point out that the auto-attack style combat is bare bones and they plan to add lots more stuff. A big part of what they intend to add is the much discussed and only vaguely understood "ability deck" which will deal out random samplings of your abilities to be used as you think appropriate. I LIKE that they have auto-att, I've never been a fan of games where I have to spend attention making sure the character does a regular swing with his/her sword. If I can assume that telling them "attack that" will make them continuously try to take pot shots, I can believe that a complex weaving dance is going on where few hits are landed but both parties have their guards up, and MY contribution to the fight becomes the timing of special tactical moves, getting favorable ground, and managing limited resources. Which is where I'd like it to be, honestly. If I am supposed to fight a massive battle where position, timing, and resources are an issue, and I have to attend carefully to every jab and thrust, it's gonna burn me out quick. Not to mention that would seriously hinder the "not so nimble fingers" group (of which I am a nominal member, ooh my aching finger knuckle).

 

I would like to have it where melee combat feels like the melee combat of Soul Caliber, that game was really exciting.
A balancing factor to prevent it from getting too complicated would be to have it where in a spec you would have a limited amount of abilities to use, say 10 (don't remember how much a character in Soul Caliber hat but it felt like it was a number like 50 or something).

 

The other factor naturally for twitch styles of online gameplay is latency ...
how does it play at 50ms ping?
how about at 350ms ping ?
... Does the guy with the lowest ping always win?

naturally tested for both for PvP and PvE

So I'm with Owain on Strategy > Tactics > Twitch

 

Having attack skills which are position-based would be a big plus. It also encourages multiplayer in that one character can grab the attention of an enemy while another uses specific flank/rear positional attacks to deal more damage/incur debuffs.

I would enjoy a system that is more action-oriented. I don't like auto attack in MMOs, for instance. While some people may complain about ‘twitch’ gameplay, if you bring some friends along with you there will be a larger margin of error for your actions. If you miss a critical strike due to latency, all is not lost. Your buddies will be there to heal you and make sure you get another crack at it.

I don't think they should develop this game's combat with tablets in mind. First off, the hardware in its current state cannot support a lot of 3D graphics. Yes, Infinity Blade looks cool, but it's heavily instanced and its controls are very poor. Which brings me to point #2: Mobile gaming does not have adequate controls to accommodate a feature rich experience. The best you can hope for is a meta-game experience like the one shown in something like Tom Clancy’s The Division, where a player on a tablet is controlling a drone.

A gamepad is somewhat viable, especially after seeing the crossbar used in the latest iteration of FFXIV. You can see an example of it here.
Holding down the left trigger brings the left half into focus; holding down the right trigger brings the right into focus. Each side has 8 buttons, mapped to the ABXY and D-Pad buttons. The left and right bumpers switch between ‘pages’ of the cross bar.

FFXIV also changes hotbars (and classes) when you switch weapons, however I think in SotA it would make more sense to just assign your ‘bow’ skills to a particular set of hotbar pages, and your ‘sword’ skills to another, and switch when you want to.

As far as damage calculations go, I’m sure the Dev team has their own ideas. I’m a fan of having character stats and gear affect base numbers and then use modulo math to spice it up with some variation within a given range.