Is a lack of understanding of the development process really the issue?

I was a kickstarter backer. I am very happy with the progression as it stands now. Considering how much money this game has raised 12Mil vs. example WOW $63Million to develop, TESO $200 Million to develop. With those funds it took WOW 5 years for first testing release. TESO 7 years. Looking at size of their teams vs SOTA and the cost / year this would say people are not understanding the costs of development and expecting too much too fast based on the amount of funding.

You can look the results up yourself.

Each release its gets better and more polished. It will be like that until close to release in which loose ends will be tied up for the core of the chapter one stuff. Some items may still be delayed but it will come. Polished quests, zones etc. should be there as well sounds and visuals that I am sure. I will get what I expected as a kickstarter as well what I expect as a backer, but I am being realistic and not demanding. its still being developed and one can't just expect them to drop important things for minor things that some are unhappy with. We need the core done to release the rest of the ascetics will follow.

Look up history, costs, development time of all the titles you want to compare this with and you will see that most were more then double this cost if not quadruple the funding and not nearly as nice compared to this stage of the game vs the cost in man hours.

 

Under construction signs dont relieve my dismay at their Priority list being lackluster.....
Saying you want to fix loading times is well common sense
Most of the stuff on there too do list is well common sense
The only content on that list thats not polishing of bugs / loading time etc is the continued focus on questlines and scenes for the RPG / Single Player folks...

But what I want and many others in the community want is end game multi player content. And thats not high enough in the priority list its on the back burner.
They want to improve fishing but its put off again and again.
They Need to fix taming not sure I have even hear the dev's put this off as they seem to duck dodge and weave around the issue of the terrible taming mechanics.
Treasure Hunting and Treasure maps are a great idea but just not something thats high priority at this time...

^^^^ Above you see thee common issue here is that anything that could make the end game multiplare experience more then GRIND GRIND GRIND combat and crafting is Not important right now.

But Handcrafting 24 more scenes to perfection and adding 5 more hours of questline's IS....

This is the problem when you have a Single / Multiplayer experience all lumped together in 1000's of seperate instanced sandbox's. Solo Version, Friends only version, Multiplayer

There is another Multiplayer crowd that is feeling alienated, and back shelved and thats the pvp folks.... of which I don't mind a little pvp but its not up on my priority list to complain about but they have valid grievances too...

When I compare sota to UO its definately UO after Trammel which is already sadly the lesser version of UO...
Best parts of UO after trammel was the economy, Vendors, selling stuff , Housing even the RMT that developed out of it was good.

And that is also the best part of Sota with the huge BUTT that every new player has to look at when they join the game!
Housing pricing is well beyond a normal persons disposable income and access to a Tax Free vendor is well you gotta join a guild if you want that because 550.00 certainly is not an option!!!

^^^^ So when the best portions of UO after trammel put into this game are trapped behind the money wall, well you have put a huge caveat on the features that are most likely to attract player to play the game....

I mean its almost like they actually believe people are going to come play this game for the Quest line and story, when there are 1000 < RPG's on Steam under the 30 dollar mark with Positive reviews?!?

Its true some people clean there windows with vinegar and war! But most people use Windex!!! My point is if I want to play a single player RPG well
Skyrim
Oblivion
Morrowind
etc are all going to be far up and over the list with Sota way way down the way...

But If I want to play and MMORPG SANDBOX
then sota jumps way up the list behind like:
Black Desert Online
Eve Online

This is sota's market this is where it needs to compete this is where it needs its content this is what is going to make it or break it, and that is the reality of this situation, that I don't think anyone here truly understands. You may not want to be an MMORPG, you may not want to be the successor of UO but thats what you need to be if your going to succeed....

 

It wasn't meant to so I'd be very surprised if it did. Which means I'm confused by your reply.

My suggestion only works where one wants to set expectations and where a change is planned. Hence the examples I gave.

The suggestion cannot work for fundamentals where no change is planned. Nor was it suggested as such.

So while I don't mind the rant and understand where you are coming from and agree with some of the issues, I can't really see where you got from my suggestion to your response to it.

From my perspective my suggestion works iregardless of whether one is dissapointed with the fundamentals or with the business model. Because it isn't intended to solve such.
Instead it is a limited scope pragmatic way of communicating what isn't ready but will change to the player. That is it.

 

Now this of course is in your opinion. Hehe I'm adding that for you. As someone who has played black desert, archeage, ffxiv, wow,lotro, and skyrim oblivian, Balderas gate and so many more, imo they are not the same genre as either. Who chooses shroud of the avatar will be someone who has a different picture of the experience they want to have. It will perhaps be someone who is tired of searching and wants more than that. Many of us found that in UO for many years.

The main reason I came here in 2013 was because I was very tired of searching. I wanted to be involved in creating a game offering heart and soul and many amazing experiences and things I wanted to see. I of course had some different ideas such as engine choice, not needing to be so budget conscious etc that I would not have wished for this game development) . Anyway I did not come here necessarily for story but I did come here for having a say in some of what this game will be and that is not UO2 or black desert2, or skyrim2 . It will be some of what we say it will be since 2013. What other game can say that atm?. Our very own feedback is in this game. This is amazing to me.

It really has been emotional and scary at times during the years wondering if we are being heard. Now as we are finally coming to release it is even more emotional with many things still not implemented to pull this wonderful game together. So it may not be the best of anything to some and it may be the best of some things to many but how these things pull together will make the game imo. Right now that has not happened.

Perhaps some may think it seems futile to continue rallying for things they want but is it? This game has not even began. What game released has everything it will have? Some in this game may be levels ahead in an unfinished game and so what. If the world pulls together in the last few months as it should none of the emotional roller coaster will have been in vain.

So imo what this game needs going forward can be found right here in the community. We have to say now or forever hold our piece (sounds like a wedding) but really now is the time to really check things out and provide the feedback to take us to a homerun. So for a few months more we can do it right? then imo Sota will be unlike any other game. Perhaps we will be a part in creating a new genre

Quote:
"If you only look at what is, you might miss what could be."

 

Just to be absolutely sure; your main pain point is the lack of end game material in a pre-release alpha game?

Are we talking our responsibilities, the ones we agreed to when we installed a pre-release game, seriously enough here?
Because more and more it sounds like we're a bunch of spoiled kids... ~"I payed good money for this, so you have to do as I say"
Half the people that argue they payed, (so port. has to do their bidding) is also complaining about pay-2-win mentality which is oxymoronic to say the least.

Also, remember that when you back something, on for instance kickstarter, you give someone else funds to realize their dreams - not yours.

 

What exactly is your '' ISSUE'' with SOTA ? You want it to be a subscription based game ?

 

Yes it did matter very much, especially early on in development when people are actually playing the game in the middle of that development. To people who know agile, reading the vast swath of negative reviews of the game over the past 4 year period proves that people dont understand it and actually address's and explains most of their issues. To many of us, people simply did not understand the game was in heavy development and talked about it like it was complete... or at least beta when it was not. But over time that is lessened and today, the game is what it is and is not going to change much mostly because its basically mostly refined. Reviews today of the game are far more valid then 1-2-3-4 years ago (which in my opinion have been completely invalid).

 

Your one of my favorite people in this forum and I typically agree with a lot of what you post, but you are far more Positive then me, and I am far more Cynical then you... when you see the glass half full I see it half empty...

We both have been searching for that game to would replace UO, but while you may think that this is it?!? I just don't see it yet, as I could go play UO and be playing a better game!
To me its like buying a car to upgrade from your old car only to find out your old car gets better gas milage, burns less oil, has a smoother ride, is more likely to start in cold weather, etc etc...

The game needs to be atleast better then a game made over 20 years ago that is my way to judge this project; does it pass the UO test... And in most every instance it doesnt...

UO Vendors fully customizable and an affordable ingame cost with no limit in number. Sota Vendors limited in number, not even slightly customizable, and are part of a 550 dollar bundle...
UO Fishing - fun with Mib's nets treasure maps, junk and fish!!! Sota Fishing - rings and fish
UO Taming - Dragons Drakes Unicorns Nightmares Cats Bears Lizards Ostards actually the list is HUGE Sota Taming - A huge focus drain thats pointless to do, and oh Bears, Wolves and Spiders so much variety!
UO PvP - Chaos vs Order, Open world, full Loot, Notoriety system, Consequences for your actions players going Grey and Red Sota PvP Rare but always involves and inventory full of junk!
UO Crafting - Realistically Grindy, No combat required, Limited skill points had to specialize. Sota crafting Jack of all trades, Stupidly grindy, Combat mandatory!

Honestly this list could go on and on....
So again I think my criteria for judging sota is pretty simple as a multiplayer game can it atleast be better then the mulitplayer game that richard gariott made 20 years ago!!!

 

I would love it, if it were a subscription but that's unrealistic to ask at this point....
But they do need to restructure the housing prices to a realistic level.... or add a type of house even if its a (Tardis) Phone booth thats bigger on the inside and sell that for a realistic price point!
Because there is the huge group of normal gamers who certainly cannot afford the costs of the housing at there current levels and also the current prices are a black eye and make the project look bad with the normal gamer at the same time!

Secondly vendors should not be hidden behind a paywall they too important for the health of the game to hide in a 550 dollar package!!!

But mainly my issue is I have been waiting for Someone to make a sandbox for years that was worth playing, and my god if Richard Gariott can't bring me the Sandbox I am have been waiting for?!? Then I am pretty sure I am going to die before I ever find an MMORPG that I enjoyed as much as UO and SWG pre NGE... And that basically takes all the wind out of my sails all the hope I have had for years to actually be able to sit down at my computer and KNOW exactly what I would be doing tonight... Like I did in the days of UO,,, Instead of spending so much time bouncing from game to game to game to game never content or happy because most games made today are just Highly graphical garbage!

 

[QUOTE="
UO Vendors fully customizable and an affordable ingame cost with no limit in number. Sota Vendors limited in number, not even slightly customizable, and are part of a 550 dollar bundle...
UO Fishing - fun with Mib's nets treasure maps, junk and fish!!! Sota Fishing - rings and fish
UO Taming - Dragons Drakes Unicorns Nightmares Cats Bears Lizards Ostards actually the list is HUGE Sota Taming - A huge focus drain thats pointless to do, and oh Bears, Wolves and Spiders so much variety!
UO PvP - Chaos vs Order, Open world, full Loot, Notoriety system, Consequences for your actions players going Grey and Red Sota PvP Rare but always involves and inventory full of junk!
UO Crafting - Realistically Grindy, No combat required, Limited skill points had to specialize. Sota crafting Jack of all trades, Stupidly grindy, Combat mandatory!"
QUOTE]

Things that have been said by developers through telethons and forums:

-Vendor customizations are planned.
-Fishing is going to have a lot more including sea monsters (This maybe chapter 2 for some as they have mentioned)
-Taming pf Drakes (Chapter 2) this also most likely means further taming options
-PvP This one not sure on the direction yet. I do not believe they will have full loot ever this is why the Oracle system is in place. I do believe based on some comments in from Developers this system will expand further though.
-Crafting (I don't see anything wrong with existing system) Combat is not required to craft. Gathering can require combat but other then the odd special items (Dragon parts, etc ) everything can be gotten very easy with out requiring much skill.
I am pretty sure over time the crafting skill trees will expand/branch further. They have already done this a few times for the Adventure trees as well added new skills to some of the crafting trees. There is no softcap in skills. you can be a jack of all traded but you will almost never get to the end game stuff easy. To get to 100GM in all skills takes a lot of time... and then some. Even so it does not stop there. Unless you specialize you will not get to the top unless you spend a lot of time invested to do so. There are some things that will require above GM to get that is for sure.

We will have all of these things over time but that is something that will require some waiting. Chapter 2 is coming.. just have to wait.

 

You know what? This game really, absolutely isn't for you.... yet.

Seriously. Stop playing. Don't even come to the forums. Just go away for six months or a year or until they do the official launch party of the game when it is in a state that they will call, "Time for Launch".

I felt like you do now, about... a few months after they did the persistent world thing. I played, but kept hitting up against limitations in what was available almost a year ago. Instead of complaining about a completely unfinished game, as though it should already be 100% finished...

I went and did other things with my time. I had great fun, then I looked back and saw what the state of things were around Release 43 and was like... You know what? This is probably close enough to finished that I could enjoy it.

I'm enjoying myself now and when it is fully launched, I'll be even happier.

So, take my advice, go do something else, you're complaining about something not finished, as though it absolutely has to be completely finished today sounds like you feel entitled to a completely finished game, well before it is even out of Alpha.

 

Oh this is great feedback and believe me I don't disagree. But remember You are talking about a completed game verses a game in development. There are still so many, many miles to go to see what will all be in this game. If you played in 2013 and not throwing this in anyone's face who wasn't here, you'd see that what's here so far is amazing.

I totally agree fishing should be enhanced to what it should be and taming work too. I was extremely disappointed for fishing that it wasn't planned for soon and pushed. Well I still am.

I believe this system and others could have given us a lot of the feel we are looking for. But don't dispair I will not drop it until it gets done even if it is not done right this minute. I do hear what you are saying . It is frustrating as hell and then to worry they won't do it right, omg I could have nightmares about that, and well right as in the way we think it should be done. Truly I am so ocd and strong about it being done right and coded.

My opinion of course is fishing, treasure hunting, agriculture, and all systems should be the foundation of exploration for this game and a big reason to play and keep playing. Now these are only a piece of what can do that. For some it will be that PvP is an adventure with wanted posters, criminal system, guildwars, and PvP Quests lines. Still things that can come in.

So as always imo and we just keep trying to connect the world with systems that do that. I never back down. My telethon and Hangout questions are perhaps not their favorites, but hopefully with other voices demanding these things as reason to play we will be heard, even if it is not right this minute but going forward. Imagine if they hear us *sighs*. What a great day that will be.

 

I wish they would do that. It could do a lot to help Portalarium out and help get more content going in the game.

 

I can subscribe now by spending as little as $5/month on the telethons and or store. All that goes towards development.

 

But it's not a firm subscription. I do the same on many multiple accounts as well! Good on you!

 

Nope that is not the issue I don't need a finished game I need to be able to believe that they are going to put in the mechanics that would make this game worth playing....

How many times has fishing been pushed back and pushed back...
How many times have they dodged the taming issue...
How hard have they failed to deliver any of the promised pvp content?
Have they made any indication they will drop the price on housing?
Have they made any indication that they understand that vendors trapped in a 550 dollar bundle is a terrible idea for such an important core game mechanic?

Yes I have heard them say "Oh Treasure Hunting would be cool" But that is a far cry from...
Treasure hunting will be done and implemented on our Road map on the 3rd quarter of next year.

My complaining here is not because of the state of the game from a play ability stand point its from my faith that they are concerned with the right issues!
The only thing I see here that I know there going to make at this time is a 120% Polished Story line for the single player experience, so no its not the current state of the game that's the problem.

I could easily wait hours in this game right now grinding, but will my faith and grind be rewarded??? I simply no longer believe it will be, as I have seen no actions or bedrock written down in stone road map features to
quell my concerns, and the only feedback I get is Berrek stalking me on social media looking for the slightest mis-spoken word so he can delete my post's....

I have plenty of reasons to support this project as I am OLD, I don't expect I have much more then 20 more years left, and I have wanted to see more then anything a decent sandbox mmorpg be released that I could enjoy before I die.
But the one person I had faith could deliver this too me is quickly loosing my faith, as I am so confused bye so many things he has done with sota!

When people complained in UO he opened up Lord Britishes castle as the complainers spewed foul language and puked over all of his furniture, he embraced criticism and acted on the complaints, but yet I find my very mild posts being deleted on steam because I refereed to the Telethon as a Beg-athon. News flash Berrek thats what it comes off as to many people, so instead of deleting the posts figure out a way to make them not look like a beg-athon! And you certainly don't delete your critic's, a current member of your team was one of the most vocal critic's of UO and now he is working along side of you?!? When you delete my posts, Berrek you are not inspiring any more confidence your just poking a frustrated bear, one who has been one of your bosses biggest fan's for years!

There are ton's of issues in the PR world of sota, we don't see Richard nearly enough, and sweeping all the criticism under the rug isn't fixing a single thing!

Here is a list of PR issues:
Beg-Athon - Erasing this post because I used this term inside of it won't fix the issue
Censoring - See ^^^^
Cash Grab - While selling a Castle to someone for 1000's of dollars might seem like a great way to garner money for development from an older gamer with the disposable income, it doesn't endear you to the normal gamer who is on the outside looking in.
Pay 2 Win - Cosmetics are not pay 2 win, but when you have such a limited amount of things you can wear in game, that in order to not have your character look like he is wearing underwear when he has chain pants on. It requires a pattern from the cash shop. Its still not technically Pay 2 Win no it becomes more of a Pay 2 Enjoy, The game should be enjoyable you shouldn't feel embarrassed to wear the basic chain mail pants.
Steam Reviews - Sticking your head in the sand and making statements like Steam is less then 20% of our player base it doesn't matter certainly show there is no clear heading to sail on this issue!
Youtube Reviews- MarkeeDragon and Elaina Strongbow and Lace Delmorte are some good youtubers but there greatly outnumbered, not to mention half of Markee's coverage is a bit tainted as "he's a trusted partner" which again helps to paint a picture that isn't really favorable to sota.

Start fighting fire with fire! You have one of the most recognizable faces in the gaming industry! Use him more!
Stop Deleting your criticism and respond to it...
If you keep hearing the same issues maybe you need to compromise and be more flexible...
Some of the largest critic's can be turned into some of the biggest supporters I have seen it happen many times in this industry....
Be more transparent put a "X" number of people are currently online in the game world. Show us a spread sheet of your spending.

I could keep beating this horse but why when "I feel" its just either going to fall on deaf ears or be deleted....

 

Pay to enjoy, now there’s a novel concept.

 

See? You said it right in your first sentence. To you, the game is NOT worth playing, since you want them to add things that will make it worth playing, to you.

My advice still stands. Stop playing this game, go do something else, come back in 6 months or a year and see if what they have added is more to your liking, if you miss the launch of something you like? To bad. You'll likely still complain about it anyway, even if it is that they released it 5 months before you come back AND you've "lost" all that time.

It's an Alpha game, complaining about features in a game NOT even in Beta sounds like a very entitled thing to say.

To me? This game is better than most Betas that I have played and I've been in more than a handful of beta tests.

 

...and if you really want to have the Developers ears, buy a package that gives you access to the Dev Forums.

I'm just waiting on my bonus this year to do so myself, as I have a pile of ideas for crafting and being an investor in this game, I really want to see it have great success.

 

You'll still get ignored on the Dev+ forums. If you have no use for assets dev + is a total WOFTAM. Not talking about you @Woftam but an actual one.