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It sure would be nice ..

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Charon, Jun 26, 2020.

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  1. Charon

    Charon Avatar

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    If I could access the store from outside the game when there's 2 hour sales running.

    Catnip needs to raise $. Potentially, I'm willing to spend $ but to earn those $ I work which means that I don't have the opportunity to spend $ on things that I'd have never purchased at full price but might've on sale.

    I remember why the store was moved in game but, in this case , you're losing potential money that you might have made.

    The world and Catnip will never know ...

    @Elgarion , @Chris
     
  2. oplek

    oplek Avatar

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    There's a number of things that give the game bad optics, along these lines:
    1. The web store
    2. The Lord of the Isle Bundles
    3. The release notes being 90% selling products
    4. The weekly newsletters selling products
    For some reason, they only decided to do something about one of these.
     
  3. Lancell Lancermane

    Lancell Lancermane Avatar

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    i would love to see a app for that lol ... now honestly that might be a idea where we have a crown store app
     
  4. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I get that the store on the website gave a bad impression to potential players about the cash shop and that was a big reason to move it in game so it was less obvious.

    And yet, the 'scary' priced thing is -still- on the website. *shrug*

    I know I sure spend a lot less in general since it went in-game. Whether that's in part due to lack of interest in the new stuff, crazy pricing on some items, or the fact that its 'in game' now is debatable. Probably a bit of each. It was a lot easier when a new shiny thing came on website and I was like oo! shiny! spend! Now its a matter of having to buy cotos to get stuff, and a lot of the time, if I have them on hand I'll get it maybe, but usually wont tab out and buy currency to claim currency then to go back on store and find what I want again and then have to 'store' unspent currency somewhere. Between that and the whole heritage items debacle the store is just downright unappealing at this point.
     
  5. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    It was a lot more exciting in the past. Bundles were awesome before someone cried about cash shop. Free to play Games have them but yet this game should not have fun things to spend real cash on. Some players have income for entertainment. Some don't but does that mean go crazy and take it all away or hide it. I say no. We should have had those great pirate bundles to include a ship to sail and pirate themed stuff. We should have had upcoming mount bundles with special mount, saddle, riding gear etc but what do we get All or nothing with Lord of The Isle.

    We have a right to choose how much to spend or not to spend but to only offer A huge bundle and not bundles of all price ranges is just sad to me. It was a big mistake imo. We needed the fun stuff to be available.

    Let all the players speak not just those that cry about spending. I loved payment plans from early days. The game probably got much of its funding on them. Many players back games, not all but if it's interesting it's our entertainment fund as a gamer to spend as we see fit. Anyway in my opinion.
     
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  6. Charon

    Charon Avatar

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    IMO, the bad optic was probably valid but the cries of pay to win weren't.

    If there's something on the store that equates to pay to win I haven't seen it. The only things I think you could argue might be helpful in that regard are potions and there's other ways to get those that don't involve the store.
     
  7. oplek

    oplek Avatar

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    Just like I've watched the word "meme" continuously de-eveolve into meaning "funny picture" over the last decade, "pay to win" has also changed and broadened. The baseline issue that "pay to win" refers to, these days, is any kind of advancement that can happen because you pay extra money for it. In this game, that'd include those potions, prosperity/artisan tools, tax-free deeds and commission-free vendors, etc.

    It fundamentally corrupts and poisons the gameplay.

    Think of those "convenience" potions in the store. So they do things like increase increase your carry capacity, speed of skill-application, etc.

    The game devs has essentially identified aspects of gameplay that could be improved, but instead of just fixing the game, they decided to nickel-and-dime the players instead. Why not just make skill application instantaneous, like in The Outer Worlds? Because there goes a revenue stream. An objectively better game design is stricken for a buck. These "convenience" items set up an ongoing motivation by devs to create as grindy and grueling of a gameplay experience as they think players will put up with.

    In that sense, it's pay to win... like giving you the option of either punching yourself in the groin a hundred times, or pay $5 to advance in a reasonable amount of time. If you don't open the wallet like the others, you'll be passed by. The "choice" fades into illusion. The fact that it's technically possible to get these things without paying extra doesn't mean the game isn't non-stop bombarding you with psychological manipulations and pressures into doing so, making the whole experience feel like you need to take a shower.

    People can quibble over the label "pay to win", but the fundamental complaints for what's being referenced are valid.

    I go further. I think the "it's only cosmetics" argument is BS. Many people consider the fishing contests that have contest rewards, to be fun content. Imagine if instead of winning those rewards, you just bought them on the store. They're no longer game content. All this fluff that we buy from the store to create our garish world could actually be game content. You could have defeated that boss, and earned the Sparkling Dragon Armor, or whatever. Instead, you just bought it.

    I'm glad to see that, in the world-at-large (in some regions more than others), there's an increasing allergic reaction to games that have any additional monetization beyond the initial game sale or subscription (setting aside the motivation of subs to make the game more grindy too). It used to be - you bought the game, and you had the game, and everything in it.
     
  8. Beaumaris

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    Ok, so let's prove that hypothesis. Go ahead now, you slug down that store-bought pay-to-win potion, and while you do that I will watch in my telescope to see if the Novian moon shifts course. That's what's going to happen right? My game is going to change in some meaningful way because a store-bought potion is sold and used by someone else. Right?

    Well, glad I wasn't holding my breath then. Because here's the thing: 'Winning' implies that there is someone to beat, that when one person benefits, someone else loses. One person's game improves while another person's game goes in the tank. But what happened to my game when you bought and drank that so-called 'pay-to-win' potion? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And even worse, no one else gave a flying acrobatic that you drank that store-bought potion too. Why? Because their game wasn't affected either. You didn't beat us at anything by drinking that potion.

    See 'pay-to-win' is a fallacy in nearly all MMOs because there is ... no one to beat. These games are not races to beat anyone. Instead, they are something different. They are endurance treadmills .... treadmills on which we each slog out a journey of our own as a long as we can, until we get tired of it and get off the ride. Someone buying a store bought potion isnt paying to 'win' by beating someone at something, they are paying simply taking the edge off of life a little and giving themselves a jolt to stay awake on their treadmill. It has nothing to do with anyone else's treadmill. It has nothing to do with winning . It has only to do with ... them remaining interested in and staying in the game. And if they do that, well, that's the win.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  9. Charon

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    I understand what you're saying but I'm more in the @Duke Aventine boat on this. Drinking that potion of guidance doesn't mean I earn xp any quicker, using a prosperity tool doesn't mean I can make anything anyone else can't make , having a TF lot doesn't mean much as the gold from the Oracle covers the tax on a Village lot and honestly how many people have enough sales that the cost of a CF vendor pays off?

    You should've stopped before you went further.

    If anyone could buy weapons, armor or rings on the store that were equal to or better than the best items that can be made, found in game or bought from another player then yes that's pay to win but I don't know how you can say with a straight face that the vast, and I do mean VAST, majority of the stuff on the store is anything other than "cosmetics". There are 339 items under home deco, 401 under outdoor deco, 147 wearables, 100 patterns, 83 homes, 74 recently added (homes, wearables and *drumroll* new deco), etc, etc and not a single one of them makes anyone able to bound a tall building in a single leap. They are, by definition, cosmetic as they have no impact at all on anyone's gameplay.
     
  10. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I have to agree with @Charon on this one, too.
    I think SotA has done a good job of keeping the store / the things that -they- sell from being pay to win.
    There's no temporary 7-day buff crap, no experience potions or statted gear, just convenience items and perhaps a few gold sink savers (such as prosperity tools) that save you literally pennies on bought tools, the main thing is the convenience of not having to fool around. Even the COTO potions don't do a great deal for you, probably the only meaningful ones are the gathering ones that increase time/metic and because they are tradeable it is a non issue.

    The store offers "pay to be fancy" with clothes, houses, pets, emotes, etc. and that's all fine.

    The odd caveat with Sota is that because it allows RMT, there's nothing stopping PLAYERS from selling things that are potentially pay to win. Like powerlevelling services, or high end gear for cash.
    In this context, a player with $1000 cash to burn can buy their way to success. But I don't think you'd avoid that in any game, even games that don't allow it, because those sorts of conversations happen outside the official game areas, and who can say that I gave Scoffer this amazing sword because he's my husband and I like him, or because he slipped me a hundred bucks? But someone still had to farm the resources for that sword, and level the skills to make that sword. Its the same thing with powerlevelling. SOMEONE is having to do the WORK - and you're paying for THEIR TIME.

    I guess where I draw the line with pay to win is if "winning" is just someone changing a value in a database and putting a price tag on it.
    I have no problem with a player selling their time to level people.
    I do have a problem with a game selling an "instant level 120 character!" for money that just comes out of the box all levelled up.
    I get why some games do it - and in some game's its even relevant, where classes are locked and your guild needs a whateverclass for the raid content and yours just ragequit so someone needs to step in. But I don't think you can call it anything other than pay to win.
     
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  11. oplek

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    Your skills go up faster, allowing you to handle more, allowing you to make progress faster.
    It saves on money spent on replacement tools, giving you a financial edge over others.

    TF lots give you a massive financial edge over those who don't, which can then spent on other things, instead of disappearing into a black hole.

    All it needs to be is non-zero for the point to stand. How long it takes to "pay off" isn't relevant. The topic is whether people who throw money at the game gain an advantage over those who don't.

    Because you didn't listen. At all.

    Because they were removed as gameplay. Do you recall the part where I was talking about fishing trophies? One of the common complaints was that player-crafting and PVE-loot are inherent at odds and competing. One of the ways this can be resolved is if the items generated by each are non-overlapping. The PVE drops could have been the cosmetics. Cosmetics are an important part of the game experience, which is why people want the fancy house over the dull-looking house. Instead of earning those as gameplay - in a scenario where people naturally compete to be the most "blingy" - you can just buy your way to the front.

    The fundamental error you and Charon are making, is that "pay to win" is not a binary yes/no. It operates on a spectrum, with game companies increasingly pushing to see how far they can go. Instead of listening to those who accuse games of being "pay 2 win", you're fixated on this exceptionally narrow interpretation of a common phrase.

    I'd gauge (at a gut-level) WoW Classic as 0%, Eve Online around 20-30%, SOTA around 40%, and so on.

    • There should be no such thing as "convenience items". It's a core corrosion of the gameplay. "Convenience" solutions translates into someone not having to play the game as much, to advance further. They advanced through spending money.
    • "Gold sink servers" aka financial bonuses to those who pay extra money.
    The repeated references to "save you literally pennies on bought tools" are baffling, as it demonstrates that the core concept isn't understood. The complaint is the game facilitating and providing avenues for which people can spend real life money to easily gain in-game advantages over those who do not. The question after that is, how much does the game coerce and pressure and manipulate players into giving up and opening the wallet?

    That's fine. You're okay with the P2W being high. I'm not. Playing WoW classic was a breath of fresh air for me.

    The rest of what you said, I'd pretty much be repeating myself more than I have.
     
  12. Barugon

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    All of this is minor and the part about tax free deeds being a major advantage is total bunk. The tax required for the free row deed you get at the start or the free village deed you get for completing the main story is completely covered by the oracle.
     
  13. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    This is a wishlist request btw. I dont think opinions and debates has anything to do around here.
     
  14. Charon

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    I get your point. I just disagree.

    If I understand you correctly everything should be available within the game with no further expenditure by the player. I, otoh, think that's pretty naive. How is a F2P game with no REQUIRED, subscription fee supposed to fund itself if they can't even sell shiny stuff that has 0 impact on game play?

    Based on what I see as an overly broad definition of F2P isn't WOW Classic a P2W game? Using your argument I'd say yes. You can't play WOW Classic if you don't have a subscription. That's how they fund the game. SOTA is F2P with no required subscription so they sell shiny deco that pays the bills.

    Different business models but at the end of the day $ leaves your pocket.
     
  15. Alleine Dragonfyre

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    I'm so confused as to why they took the web-version of the store away. Impulse purchases are real and they shouldn't be blocked.
     
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  16. Sulaene Moon

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    "
    I'm even more confused that PoTs are for sale on the web, yet highlighted at the top of the page it says that purchasing these expired in 2016, but still allows me to buy one.
     
  17. majoria70

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    They just opened them up again for purchase. Expiration date is informational as this was the expiration of last purchase time except when they opened up a few for Episode 2.
     
  18. Sulaene Moon

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    Umm okay? Why do they need it?
     
  19. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Thanks, I removed the expiration comment. :)
     
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  20. kaeshiva

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    There's absolutely a spectrum, I'm just saying compared to a lot of what is out there, SotA's pretty low on it, in terms of what the actual game developers sell for money. Its fluff and minor, minor incentives. If you're being extremely technical about it, yes, buying a prosperity tool saves me some precious seconds of in-game time repairing a crafted tool snd a pittance of gold that repairing or replacing that tool would have cost me. Its convenience, rather than a significant cost-saving. I'd put this at like 0.5 on a 1-10 scale of pay to win. Its very very minimal. Ask two crafters, one using a prosperity tool and one not, to craft 1000 of something, and it might take the regular person 10 hours and cost them 1000 gold, and the prosperity user will take 9 hours 50 minutes and not spend 1000 gold. Its not worth splitting hairs or getting upset about. Same thing with things like 'bigger fancier houses' when in the very basic row house you have sufficient storage to store everything you could ever possibly want to store due to generous container limits (not to mention basement, dungeon expansions to that very basic row lot.).

    You're taking a very literal definition of can I buy ANYTHING that makes my gameplay better in the most minimal insignificant way as pay to win, which is not really fair - as you pointed out, there's a spectrum.

    But in terms of actual benefit for cash investment, from the game shop itself? I'd say its very low. The problem is that the game embraces a secondary market that skews the pay to win into the very 'high' bracket - beyond which many are uncomfortable.
     
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