Magic & monsters too commonplace and boring in most RPGs

Hmm.. I'm not even sure what you are talking about anymore Bad Karma... other games? It doesn't sound like anything that is intended to be part of SoTA.

As far as Rare hunting goes, Generally you would have to find a rare spawn item or rare spawn monster. meaning once in a great while(as often as a few times a day or as rare as 1x per month) it will show up in a specific area. I say move that from being a specific location to nearly anywhere in the world (as long as it makes sense for it to be there).

Then you can make it even more rare by trading in these rare spawn items to someone who gives you a then even rarer item.

I enjoy rare hunting, its not for everyone. Some people love PVP, others questing, some treasure hunting ala UO treasure maps. I love finding random/rare objects/creatures.

The system you described doesn't sound anything like rares.. of course it isn't rare if anyone can just go do it at anytime.

 

@SirMishri

Weren't you the one talking about "other games"?

My post was based on UO - 90 % playerbase of what are also waiting for SotA. Provided that the project is ran by UO creators I think it is crucial to outline the problems of UO so sa to avoid them in a new game.

 

I agree with Gunga about magic being learned. There can be common spells, but there should be plenty of rare spells especially at higher levels.

It makes the spell craft more interesting if you have to piece together your spell book by going to different cities for training or finding interesting rare scrolls.

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I don't want it to become too much of a grind, but to gain some high level spells I'm not against having to read a particular book or long scroll talking about a spell and you have to figure out from what you read what reagents it might require, and what words of power to use. So these more powerful spells can require some work to actually figure out the right mix

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Well I think we are derailing the intention of this thread at this point.

By creators you mean Richard Garriott, I think he is the only one who worked on UO that is on this current project. You should watch the videos and his ideas of what makes an ultimate RPG before comparing this game to UO.

As far as bringing up other games I was contrasting what other games have done against what it sounds like this game would do. Also to describe purposes of various gameplay. You just brought up every negative aspect of other games and exaggerated it to the point of being absurd.


Back on topic:

Yes questing, searching, finding rare scrolls or other items in order to learn a spell,(can't be given/traded for you alone), befriending certain groups (alienating others) to get specific magic (now others aren't available) to get more powerful magic is awesome!

One mud I played required high level casters to quest for their best spells. An Enchanter had to find and kill various top level dragons to get the scales they needed to get a powerful defensive spell, dragonscale (more potent version of stoneskin)

 

I did not exaggerate anything, all what I described is a common practice in UO and most other MMO's (though I cannot be for sure as I do not play other MMO's). Your ideal is to have quests for certain item/spell. You completed the quest, got the certain item. What's next? Another player will eventually do the same. Rarity of the item is decreasing. In a single player game it is all right, but what about the multi player aspect of the game? Even though it is too early to judge I am still unsure what the multi player part of SotA will look like.

 

Magic-rare worlds often feel more satisfying, though we could debate how much of this is really a measure of the writer's skill. Often times, it is the internal myth of the story that drives this. The idea of a fallen world, or one where magic has faded, operates as a method of foreshadowing, creating anticipation, and also creates a sense of realism, because our myths in this world express the same sentiment. I'm thinking of Middle Earth, King's Dark Tower Universe, the world in Beagle's 'The Last Unicorn'. Magic exists but it is rarely commonplace. The re-entry of magic into the world is a richly explored theme, perhaps best typified in 'Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell'. Of course, some writers create worlds where magic is very common without cheapening it. The esteemed Mr Hickman is certainly one of those, and Stephen Erickson does it in the extreme. Robert Jordan straddled the line on this masterfully.

Less skillfull writers often use magic in the same way big budget blockbusters use CGI: too much and with little effect on the audience.

So, I think this topic is tied up with the back story that Tracy and RG are creating. RG said it well in the last dev chat (paraphrasing) when he said everything needs to have a REASON for being there. I think RG has always handled these issues with a subtle hand, and I trust he will continue to do so, especially with Tracy as copilot. I, for one, am thrilled to think we will be adventuring in a largely original world (though I'm not adamantly opposed to the occasional kobold).

 

@Gunga Din @Isaiah full agreement on traveling to find trainers and teachers - this is a great way to keep the homogenization of Avatars at bay.

 

I applaud the sentiment of wanting to make things feel more epic all around, but making "monsters and magic" more rare in a fantasy setting would be a bit like making martial arts rare in a kung fu movie. Kind of boring.

Besides- what about casting skills? If I'm a necro what do I do most of the time, bonk things on the head with my staff? I mean why not make weapons and armor rare so that when you have them it enhances the mystery and excitement?

That being said, I LOVE the ideas here regarding having to learn magic- travel, questing, experiment, hell that's what magic and adventure is about anyhow right?

 

@Lukashka - Making magic less commonplace doesn't mean you'll have to resort to using weapons. One step towards making magic seem less common in this world and giving it a more rare/mysterious feel would be to not have a magic shop on every street corner. When magic items are a dime a dozen being sold by random people on the street in every town, it really makes magic feel less special. This wouldn't necessarily make magic less accessible to the player that wanted magic, but it would make the world feel more like one where magic is something special.

Other things you could do:
1) Have special magic teachers/schools that hold most of the real magic in the realm, and most people in the world think the people at these schools are weird/mysterious/evil.
2) NPCs act scared or surprised when you cast a spell in front of them. Maybe it could even have potential ramifications (calling a guard in a really magic-phobic town).
3) Magic spells need to be learned either from a teacher or from a quest. No picking up scrolls for a couple coins at the corner store, or finding a spell scroll dropped by some minor monster.

I don't think you need to actually negatively impact spellcasters' gameplay to make magic feel more like something special. If anything, I think doing this stuff would make magic-users feel much more bad-ass.

 

@Alayth Okay I see where you're going with that, and I like it. I completely agree that having a magic shop on every corner is a little more waffle house then most people would care for.
Excellent ideas as well about NPC reactions- they could even have the opposite reaction to knights and such, admiring their armor and flirting, that sort of thing.

Love it.

 

@Alayth - I also like that because it gives you more opportunities to weave magic into a coherent story/lore rather than just a utility item, like stocking up on bandages.

Whatever is done, whether monsters are rare or plentiful, whether they are smart or kind of herd-like, would be better if it was tied into a little more of a story about the world. Even in old-style RPG's (paper) you had the problem of giant spiders living next to a band of thieves in a dungeon. How do they coexist? A story helps make sense of it all. The thieves raise the spiders, or the spiders are repelled by a certain plant the thieves use to keep them at bay. This makes it interesting.

Same with magic. If magic is plentiful, explain why - rare, make up a story.

I don't think the problem is any one particular option whether it makes things common or rare but the problem of not having an explanation as to why it is the way it is.

 

Not integrating human AI enemies in the game world is a mistake, I think. Having human antagonists fleshes out the state of the world more and helps deliver moral and ethical issues that usually aren't present with just monsters. In these situations, I am usually finding it more psychological and analytical about why the characters are fighting.

Additionally, I enjoy the flow and weave of a story with multiple antagonists in a saga. Since the SotA project is going to be composed of 5 chapters, a story with this kind of structure seems ideal.

Thoughts?

 

@Cloudroth: Tracy Hickman talked in one of the dev chats about story development, not just antagonists but all sorts of character types in a good story. It was quite fascinating. I think based on that you can assume the characters in SoTA will be rich and of many different types.

 

Good to know. Usually necessary for a good story containing character interaction so meeting people doesn't become stale.

 

Hahaha, nice comment but without evil monstrosities to fight in a fantasy game, you wouldn't have much of a game would you? Games are fun to play, otherwise people wouldn't play them lol/

As you were.

 

On the topic of monsters being commonplace and there being no "good" or "evil", I'd like the bring up the story. You have legions from hell coming into your world and burning down citys for no reason. With hellgates open all around the world, you'd expect there to be quite a bit of monsters. But there should also be things like bandits, werewolves, thieves, ect; similar to a way skyrim does its random encounters. My favorite example is when I came across a group of vampires dressed as vampire hunters; and upon further investigation found the un-dressed corpses of the vampire hunters. Things like that can be interesting, but have to be implemented in a way where there is always variables; so maybe the vampires aren't always vampires, or maybe they'll just walk apst you and then try to plunge a dagger in your back, or try to rob you and hold a knife to your throat, not giving you a CHANCE to draw your weapon. things like that can really fill and make a game.

 

(I apologise for double post)
On the topic of magic; I agree completely with red, I shouldnt be able to summon a fireball in my hand simply because "I can"; but learn how to do it. Where did I get that power? How do I learn to controll it? How do I not harm myself or others with it? How is it possible to shoot fire from my fingertips?! I feel like magic should be accessible, but not be self taught, and powerful spells actually take time and dedication to master and use effectively. According to all rpgs, it takes years to master the arcane, so if it doesnt take me years, I want a reasoan why not.
To quote skyrims Tolfdir; "It takes dozens of years to master the arcane arts." Meanwhile I'm shooting the most powerful destruction spell in the game without losing any magic because I enchanted my gear and took a couple magicka increasing potions.

This should NOT happen under ANY circumstance.

 

I think this could be an interesting design philosophy for a future game.

 

Well the implementation of experience points, levels, and such that depend upon killing a massive amount of bad guys to progress has lead to games that need to have monsters commonplace. Multiply that by the number of people playing an online game, and you get the typical "every 5 feet is a orc" landscapes that are commonplace in MMOs. Players want to progress, and they are much happier killing that orc every 5 steps than having to wander around for 30 minutes just to find one orc.

I'm kinda with you, that it gets old. I would like each fight with a monster to be as epic as a raid boss, where you feel some sense of accomplishment that you killed the boogeyman that was harassing the village. But alas, he respawned 30 seconds later only to be killed by the next adventurer.

Hopefully some dev-lead events and very rare spawns will be in the game to give us that sense of accomplishment, where we can say "I was there at the Battle of Trinsic" to a new generation of adventurers.

 

I like the idea of magic being more of a mystery and requiring adventure to master the skills.

But what if magic, especially the bigger special spells were simply just more costly to use, in terms of either reagents or life/mana.

This way lower spells such as support or healing can be used commonly, but the 'special' spells either need a lot of funding and/or support from other characters to sustain the magic user. This could make interesting dynamics in groups.

I've been playing these zombie survival games, and like the idea whereby guns are common, but the ammo is quite rare. So you choose your shots and don't waste ammo. It gives a different vibe than any online shooter, with a bit of thought and realism involved where spamming bullets would be the norm. Same could be said for magic use!