Multiple Cultures

As this is my first post on these forums, I'd like to say that I'm a big Ultima fan. My first exposure to the game was Ultima 2, and I've been around ever since.

One of the things I've noticed since the early days was a lack of competing cultures in Ultima games. Everyone seems to fit into the standard medieval European fantasy cookie cutter.

Ultima 1 had four different islands with several different kings, but no real difference between them. Ultima 3 had one giant continent with multiple towns, but only one culture under LB.

Ultima 4 - 7 and 9 were much the same as U3, with a vastly different, more complex land, but still no competing cultures. The only exception to this was U6, which introduced the gargoyles.

Ultima 8 had a few different cultures based on the worship of competing gods, but they were still very similar.

UO returned to one land with one culture - it took several expansions to include different cultures, but those were done... poorly(obviously, this was during the post Garriott era).

For SotA, I would really like to see multiple cultures that don't follow the fantasy medieval pattern. For example - I would love to see a classical Greek style culture, northern barbarian/viking cultures, desert dwellers, undersea dwellers, jungle "natives", etc.

I think having competing cultures as a layer underneath the main story would add to the richness and depth of the story as well as avoiding the "generic fantasy cookie cutter" problem many games, movies, and books seem to be trapped in. (See Game of Thrones and the Conan stories for excellent examples of how to avoid this trap.)

Think about it this way - in the real world, if there was some sort of super villain/big bad guy that was out to dominate the earth, do you really think every nation would band together to stop them?(see WW2 for your example). Rather, the nations would squabble and argue, pick sides, stay neutral, etc.

Just a thought to start the morning. Too ambitious?

 

I think we would have seen this had Ultima 1 had better technology at the time. However imagination was the only substitute. I always imagined that the Lands of Lord British were exactly as they were in Ultima 3 and Ultima 4 onward. Quite united and well off.

The Lands of Danger and Despair was obviously similar to as we saw in Ultima 7: Serpent Isle.

The Lands of the Feudal Lords I imagined being quite a nasty dark ages type place with many city states vying for power.

The fourth and final continent; the Lands of the Dark Unknown for some reason I always imagined as barbaric and misunderstood. Much like the Ancient Roman perception of the British Isles and Northern Europe.

Anyway back on topic! I do hope also that we get some cultural divergence between the different nations and factions and races within the game. However I do want some consistency and logic. I don't want different cultures for the sake of it. It needs to make sense. Perhaps one continent would all have a common ancestry, then across the ocean you've got a completely different (maybe classical) race much like your example of Game of Thrones. Many of those barbaric and classical tribes are allowed to exist across the ocean because they are isolated. They would be very minor, if at all non-existent if they were dwelling among the Seven Kingdoms where they'd be heavily influenced or their own culture diluted.

 

I agree that the technology limited this sort of thing. Not trying to disparage RG's early efforts. I actually meant to say that in my original post, just too many thoughts swirling around in the head.

Even U7, which introduced the Serpent Isle cultures was still pretty generic. Yes, they each had their own separate focus based on their twisted virtue, but they still all looked and dressed alike, for the most part.

I would like to see more than one culture per continent, myself. The world of Conan is probably a better idea than Game of Thrones, in my mind. Vastly different cultures all mashed together and in competition with one another; constant border skirmishes and invasions; exotically dressed merchants trading back and forth between two countries; etc.

I think it would make a great backdrop to an epic storyline. It would also give a good reason why the hero is so necessary - the squabbling nations can't agree on how to rise up against the threat(and some may support it).

Thanks for the input!

 

I'm sure you could add more depth, but I'd say Ultima IV (and onward) had different cultures. I mean you had a city full of humble shepherds with their own colors, clothing, mantras, philosophy on life. Then there were 7 more cities that were very different and of course surrounding towns and villages.

There were just limits to the technology and the depth people actually cared about in a game that was going to be played through in a short about of time - rather than one that holds your interest for thousands of hours over years.

 

i like to see more cultures indeed

since we'll have no much "Elfs" or "Orcs" etc then might have as well more cultures like Asia warriors Samurai/Ninjas, Egypt, Vikings, etc

 

I think I'd prefer to see one culture, well developed, ranter that 4 or 5 half baked cultures.

 

one new culture for each new continent/island makes perfect sense

 

@PrimeRib - The cultures in U4 you are referring to were really more based around an ethic(Honor, Justice, Honesty, etc.) or a profession(city of Paladins, Shepherds, Rangers, etc.) In later Ultimas, when graphics allowed, there were different ethnicities, but they still all centered around medieval Europe. The desert dwellers differed little from the swamp/jungle dwellers which differed little from the plains or mountain dwellers.
Also, they were all Britannians. There were no other countries. I agree that a great deal of it boiled down to technology, but since the tech has improved, I don't see any reason not to expand the world to include different cultures at this point.

@Owain - I don't think it is that hard to do, especially if the cultures are based on real world cultures. Good RTS games do this all the time (Civ, AoE, etc.)

I also see this as a way to extend the gameplay. If the story can be "won"(and likely will be in a short time), then it would help to have something to flesh out the world so there is more to do that doesn't revolve around the main storyline.

We've already seen that gypsies will be a part of the game(as they have been in the past), and they are more eastern European than central, so I definitely think this is worth exploring.

Of course, because we don't have any idea about the size of the world or the general makeup, this could be a shot in the dark. Now is the time for discussion, though.
Again, thanks for all the opinions!

 

Given the small size of the current continent, multiple cultures make no sense. If you can walk across it, there is no need for different cultures to develop. Historicall, the developed because populations were cut off from each other. In future releases, episodes 2-5, maybe, but on on release.

 

@Owain - I agree that the continent have to be much larger than that shown in the demo, but we don't actually know the real size of the world, so are. What we have is a playable demo with the barest essentials that doesn't give us any idea of what the real gameworld is supposed to be.

I wouldn't argue with the idea of seeing other cultures in other releases, but I think the idea needs to be discussed now, because, if the idea is to build a world, you need to have the ideas of what the world looks like from the start.

Also, if you look at central Europe, there are actually several different cultures that have existed in that small space for a long time. Vikings, Romans, Spaniards, etc. The Mediterranean is not that far away, and there are several cultures in that area alone. Nor is it that far to North Africa.

Even when the dominant culture of the world was Rome, you had dozens of cultures represented in the city of Rome itself, despite the fact that many of them called themselves Romans. The culture in Gaul and the German provinces may have had Roman influence, but they didn't look at all the same.

 

what was it... i think it was last year, it was on the news
there's still natives pre-civilization culture at the heart of the amazon

and another similar news around asia/africa one of those abandoned tiny islands, where they found another tribe of human that evolved without modern interference until the scientist started exploring there.

of the few WW2 Japanese Pilot survivors that crash landed on an abandoned island, and they didn't even know the war was over already, they had to find their old commander of the platoon from Japan, to tell them before they believed what transpired.

so, we could have cool stuff like that in game

 

Again, they're not all that deep. But they were distinct different cultures. They had they own "god", their own food, their own cloths, way of life. Those were more that just professions - they were the entire way of life for that city. Just like the Spartans were more than just a bunch of fighters hanging around. I guess if you're thinking of all the Greek cities states as a monoculture, you'll probably think the same thing here. I don't expect them to be as different as Rome and China....they're still the same country with the same language and king.

These games had 4 color graphics. They wouldn't even represent the cities colors properly. I suspect you'll see very different houses dictated by the environment. As well as everything else altering from the availability of resources to the predominant local economy.

 

@Allgamer, you examples prove my point. All represent pockets of people in isolation, hence different cultures.

 

@PrimeRib - I see what you are getting at, but that didn't develop any as the game progressed. In Ultima 7-9, when the graphics were there to represent these differences, the differences were just not there. The same goes for UO.

I fully understand the limits of the graphics engine in the earlier games. I have acknowledged this.

What I am getting at is simple - We are at a point, technologically, where we really can create a "world" with various cultures and such for a game like this one.

You guys should check out Age of Conan, which is a great example for the kind of thing I want to see(in terms of culture variation, not gameplay).

The different lands look and feel different. You could play 3 different ethnicities from the start(with another added later). Travel between the different areas is fairly easy, and the areas have their own distinct music, terrain, clothing, armor, etc. The NPC dialogue is tailored to the region. There are quests that send you from one region to another. It really is spectacular.

 

i'll like to come across some Terracotta warriors on my exploration

 

I'd like to see some different cultures also. We are used to different nations in RL and in fiction, so any one-only would feel limited, wouldn't it?

These different groups may vary in small things, like cloths types and colours, as a start, and in bigger ways like completely different housings, language, skills etc.
What about different power systems? "Traditional" feudal system vs some sort of technocracy. Also with different symbol (symbol systems) for state&power. And different music.

These differences would add to the depth of the world, and also could be used for any sort of game/story plots. So lets hope

 

West meets
East

 

Now that we've reached the 1.5 million mark, we have a continent that will double in size from the original. Time to start thinking about this more seriously!

 

we can all do some home work and help together research old civilization we can incorporate into the game.

Since "New Britania" is based roughly around Europe
then we could add some ancient culture from... Atlantis Africa, Asia, Vikings from Iceland, etc.

 

Another example of game series with different cultures is the Elder Scrolls.

If they do include different cultures in the game, I personally prefer they wouldn't be too far from each other like knights vs samurai. The world is too small for that sort of thing.

But even within medieval Europe you see different cultures... scandinavian, slavic, iberian, finnic, germanic, wallachian, etc. Even in Germany you had many local cultures, bohemian, prussian, pomeranian, etc. (Just a thought if theyre considering that direction).