Physical items

I appreciate, and by extension I can assure you the other folks working beside me here appreciate, all these supportive sentiments...

The courtesy of decorum makes our efforts worthwhile... In return, we'll continue doing our best for you...

Scottie ^_^

 

As far as I'm concerned, it takes as long as it takes to make it as good as they can - after all, it's been a few years since I paid for this, I can wait a few months more, especially since what we saw of the intended products in the past looked very nice indeed.

 

Now,...speaking of physical goods, I need to get back to what I was doing for the back of the Runic Language Card, which will contain a larger handy list of keyboard shortcuts, which,...coincidentally, only got definitively nailed down last week... Strange how that works!

Scottie ^_^

 

To say that I am not highly disappointed by this entire process would be a lie. I have resigned myself to the fact that this is how it is.

 

May i ask what kind of digital content needs to be finshed first?

 

That's entirely understandable, just as it is for Meniketti... You've been on this forum, tracking the very process you've been disappointed in, since 2014... I admire your tenacity, but I'm sad that you're merely resigned to it... Hopefully, despite this resignation, you will at least be able to appreciate the outcome... If not, were I in your position, I don't think I would still be here, whether I was waiting for a box of product or not... The game you can play right now is more than the sum of the physical goods, and was first priority despite how long it took... And the physical goods amount to more than just what our game contains, and is the culmination of Richard's desire to offer something that warms the hearts of those who loved the boxed games of old...

It's not a perfect art, Vasflam2, its a labor of love for us... I understand your disappointment, I really do... And I appreciate your cordial honesty... I just hope that you don't allow it to overshadow any joy you might obtain from what we've done, and are still trying to do, for you and everyone else who's supported us along this journey...

Scottie ^_^

 

Sure! Like I said, we only JUST nailed down what we wanted all the keyboard shortcuts to be (at least for the back of the Runic Card)... There had been a great deal of debate as to exactly which "strange artifact" would be included in the box, but having fairly recently decided upon an Ankh, the digital file of the sculpture by Denis Loubet had to be finalized, approved, and ultimately sent off to those who will be manufacturing it... Since much of the content for the Adventurer's Manual depended on the inclusion of information and data based on specific parts of the game itself, not only were we still waiting on getting all that approved (before I'm even allowed to finish laying it all out), but that had the cascading effect of delaying how quickly we could notify Denis Loubet about the specifics of the art he needed to make (since that decision was based on what the sections surrounding the "placeholder art" talked about)... Denis, as a result, is even now engaged in drawing the last few images we need... Even the World Map went through a series of last-minute changes based on decisions about what to and what not to include...which couldn't even have occurred to us a subject to discuss a month or so ago...

And then, of course, once all that is said and done, we need to get all these digital files to the manufacturers so they can start the process of fabrication... It's already happening here right in Austin, with things such as the Property Deeds and the Certificates, which I personally hand-delivered to the printer so the process could begin... (Speaking of that, I need to call them right now to find out if they're ready for me to drop by and see the initial print sample)...

Take care! I MUST sign off for now...

Scottie ^_^

 

A quick example of THEN Vs. NOW.

They could have produced the map years ago, when they knew what Novia would have looked like THEN, and called it "meeting expectations" so they could deliver it at "launch".

OR...

They could do what they DID, and wait until everything was finalized, and sent the map of Novia as it is NOW.

Which would you prefer?

Novia in all it's pre-alpha hexagonal glory?



Or, a map that represents the stunning land of Novia as it really is?



Note: I have no idea if the second image is what is being used Just used for comparison
2nd Note: ...because it's awesome!

 

The second image is @Birko's map, and isn't being used for the cloth map... However, I *DO* need to get a copy of his R52 File so I can get a hardcopy made.

 

Right?

I figured as much, but it is the only one I could find in short order to use as a recently produced example.

 

Sorry, just wanted to throw a little humor in there! The aforementioned quotes reminded me of those movie scenes, lol. Not used to seeing you get so fired up Scottie.

Speaking only for myself (and maybe @Sir Frank ), I can honestly say that I think you do incredible work and look forward to every telethon segment that features you and what you're working on. Why, you might ask? Simply because you love lore and history as much as I do and it comes across in every painstaking detail you put into your work. I also greatly appreciate the amount of effort you put in to responding to us players, even on the weekends. I think some folks miss that. Any rate, you're the man dude!

 

@Scottie You need to be out there promoting the game on different forums!

Your knowledge of the english dictionary/language would put everyone to shame!

Your heart and passion for the game and what you do is the biggest i have yet seen!

Grats on taking a stand and speaking up!

You need a bigger role at Port!

*edits.. on mobile*

 

No doubt the second map looks better. More complete, filled out. But let's not pretend Portalarium doesn't have a history of wiggling meaning of words just to check off something on the list.

So for Episode 1 there is nothing else to add, purely polish and bug fixing? Not a single in game feature that is big enough to warrant adding to a manual?

But then, this is an MMO, and any reasonable person will expect that the finished CD sent to people is already behind and will have to go through those "Day 1 patches". Even when delivered within a few days of "release". Which is a hazy term for Portalarium.

See? Always redefining things or make it seem like Portalarium is the only one of a few rare people to do such things, such as Alpha, Beta, crowdfunding, etc.

So any reasonable person will expect an MMO (which this was not supposed to be) to fairly shortly have an outdated manual, and as time goes on more and bigger parts of the manual get outdated. At some point you just have to stop and make the physical goods. The devs told us that Episode 1 is also not supposed to be finished until the end of the year. Are we to wait until then to get physical items? Why have an unfinished "release"?

The physical coins and Runic Translations are already made then? How often do they need to change due to digital changes? Especially runic, isn't that decades old?

It's easy to be honest when you change meanings of such markety words to mean whatever you want them to mean, after the fact.

Offhanded comments made by you devs, here and elsewhere, displeases a lot of people as well. And frankly certain people should not be allowed to post outside of this safe space bubble. They are doing a lot of damage on their own, without the help of some "organized trolls", that work for other AAA studios, that bash all things Portalarium because they are so afraid of this game. The constant excuses why any and all criticism should be silenced, should be ignored, that everything is right with the game, is frankly insulting to to a lot of people.

What people are failing to understand is why someone is saying what they are saying, even if they use some words they shouldn't.

Any reasonable person expects an MMO launch to have start off at level 1. Maybe there is a head start for a few days, and there is good reason for that. Not to be 600+ days behind at launch.

"Many thousands of people are ignoring this game until launch. When they get physical items in their hands it is their key that the game has launched." You devs have said that, in some form. And yet get surprised people log in shortly after launch and find out they are so far behind. And people blaming those players for ignoring "Persistence". Then continue to talk down and make ignorant statements like "Maybe we should wipe every 6 months then, or every time someone creates a character." But that has been hashed, and if you don't understand WHY someone has has commented on being so far behind AT RELEASE, no amount of additional words will do so.

When people critical of Portalarium and Shroud posts something, they are quickly dismissed for whatever reason. Someone that has been a long time supporter, that continues to support this team, posts something critical, and the devs are all "Right we should have done a better job at communicating." And then rarely ever improve on the big stuff. Player base migration anyone? And those long time supporters that posts something critical, that are no longer also being supportive in general, are now lumped in with all the other trolls.

Shroud has a bad rating on Steam, because all Steam people suck, are nothing but trolls, all criticisms are flat out ignored, Steam users do this to all games... But wait, I can find both MMOs and RPGs that have very high ratings. I thought Steam was a bad place? Then why did you release on Steam? Did Steam suddenly turn bad because YOU released on it, despite other games released since having very high ratings? If Steam was so bad before, why did you release on it? Or is it just easier to believe it is the actions of Portalarium and the game itself that is driving these low ratings and many criticisms?

Portalarium has made this mess of a lot of anger coming from some people. Despite your tone in your response Scottie at least you are not the worst offender on your team. Even if the tone used by that one poster should have been better said while still being critical, you need to understand WHY someone would say that.

I do give a later post of yours Scottie better props.

But the problem is, you may be content, but the rest of your team are all too content to silence him or to make him into a permanent auto-moderation like I am, simply for pointing out some lies.

https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudofth...w_under_automoderation_for_calling_out_their/

Also how about you devs taking some personal responsibility for your language as well (Scottie, at least it seems you have to some extent)? Scottie, if we can show you messages both here and elsewhere of your team attacking people, just like you hated this one person attacking you, will you agree that the message used by your own company must never be used again as well? Or, it's only good enough to be used on the critics, while Portalarium and supporters can get away with whatever they want?

You tell me, why I can be moderated for simply stating:
"Haven't seen RMT in over 2 years, yet has a signature pointing to an RMT forum post. Social engineer indeed."

Yet the SUPPORTERS can say much worse, and not get touched, even when the posts are reported, so you have no excuse to not know about it? Was it because I used "social engineer"? But the post I directly responded to, did as well:
"As I have told the social engineers for years."

So once again biased against any and all criticism. And you are ok with silencing those that have been critical. If you really believe such language and attacks should not be allowed, then they should not be allowed regardless who says it, right? You should have a talk with your co-workers, then, and tell them how disgusted you are with both what they do and allow.

 

You just can't please some people. I have also learned a lot about people through this open development process. I have to say there are some folks out there that seem to really dislike the game but they keep talking about it on various sites for like 4 years so they can't hate it that much

I, for one, am stoked about physical rewards. Rarely does anyone else bother with it in this digital age, and I can still remember the awe of going to the micro center in the Houston galleria when I was a tyke, in the mid 80s, and having the employee show me that box of Ultima IV with the cloth map inside... it's THAT experience that I looked forward to most with each Ultima release and I'm glad to see I get another shot at it.

Patience is a virtue ? hehe

 

I agree. I can understand the pain of having to wait for something, but I'd really only be disappointed if they did not ship or deliver the goods as agreed. They've shown the work, and said they're sending them. That's plenty for me to be excited to receive them.

 

@Mykll

I often agree with your arguments, understand the sentiment... however we're dealing with an indie studio here, not a pro studio who changed the definition on us.

So yes, some definitions changed, the game idea evolved, priorities changed.

Sure some of the devs are pros and could very well work within the framing you seem to suggest between the lines. But that is not how it works here...

The devs in the team have tasks and rotations and are being used for many roles within the company. And in this day and age, all kinds of social expectations need to be met if your game is going to attract people from the main gaming crowd.

So Scottie had to wait until the team said ok we are satisfied with the content enough, drop your current work and start working on the polish of those boxes.

He wasn't standing there waiting because of some misguided sense of perfectionism. It was planned way in advance, and even declared publicly in the various blogs and release notes.

So to keep to your argument about disgruntled players being silenced... well that comes with the amount of passion that players devote to your game.

Since this is one of the most varied and international niches I've seen, I think its pretty normal that the amount of organized dissent (double sense posts, hidden meanings and even small conspiracies) becomes overwhelming.

I am one of the first to be frustrated about having to soften my constructive criticism, but I am also the first to put myself in others shoes, and in this case I'm like :

Ok I myself get frustrated when someone comes in and just says this sucks, its pathetic or whatever else terminology, I would like to reply and help those players both feel like they have a voice and at the same time that we wont stop the discussion too short and that real concerns are being addressed.

But then you sometimes find out that the player you're talking to is an alt, and I end up being personally attacked by the people who are easy trigger on labeling people trolls, and the trolls, and sometimes even the devs because I've inadvertently stirred the pot.

Usually I will never attempt to drag the worms out of an abiguous character's critics unless I'm certain to be able to finish the conversation and that it becomes logic based and not purely emotional even hysterical.

But I make errors... sometimes I was handed my own logic back, and it ended up causing more harm than good.

So can we really ask the devs, who are working each day of the week behind a computer, probably haven't seen the sun in years (figuratively speaking) and have to deal with all the private channel critics and complaints that we all do NOT see... to actively be full time psychologists at the same time and be able to split a hair in four ?

I think not... its not human, and it does not lead to better choices, in fact it puts pressure on an already overloaded JIRA system and when people are stressed, they make even more errors.

Besides, it is known that it has a negative effect to push people on the side, it just is weighted against the capacity the devs can have.

In portalarium offices, there is some whipping going around lets not imagine its all roses and dew. If the lead devs tell someone in the team, you don't go on the forums this week, they won't go, they will be tied to their tasks until completion or block.

So sometimes it gives the impression that a dev participated in a thread and didn't complete it, but in fact they have been forced to focus on deadlines.

To be completely honest here, I don't think the development model is the worse cause of these communication issues, I think we the community are to blame for not having coherence.

We have no JIRA, no main place to follow important discussions, we haven't organised even a tiny bit and if we can understand why (our differences of opinion, culture and politics) we can also understand why portalarium is creating a firewall, and I prefer that it is integral and public, rather than behind the scenes.

If we had organized, and there were 100+ pvp players saying the same thing, then we could have seen movement on some issues to give a concrete example.

I still think this game deserves a full time community manager and also a full time community information organizer/dispatcher who can tag devs and put it on their schedule so they can address important issues.

Indie studio that we backed... we didn't pre-order, we backed devs that were upfront and didn't try to hide the risks. Thus IMO they deserve the slack... they deserve to be treated as humans.

 

I would like to state my personal expectation of communications here on our forums: remain respectful of community members and developers in your posts. I will link to our rules and guidelines here and lock this thread.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/community-rules-guidelines.54804/

Thank you all for your input.