Player Basics - Not all Maps work for every scene in the game currently

Discussion in 'Player Created Resources' started by Anpu, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    7,090
    Likes Received:
    8,246
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Many areas do not have maps and many do. Currently only a few areas you enter in will have a map, when you press the (default) map key m (if it is not already on).

    We currently do not have a fully functioning map system for all areas in the game. There is no known ETA when or if this will be added.

    Almost every new player or returning player will always ask this question or notice this, and many players just wonder if they are doing something wrong, and you are not doing anything wrong or do not have some option set. Simply put, for now, some scenes have maps, and some do not. There is nothing at all you can do.

    I will however go over the information about this as best as I can, based on the information we do know currently.

    Previously, we did have a working map system for most all scenes, but this required the loading of an external (Non Unity) .DLL file to make that system work. When Chris would report various issues and crashing to the Unity Developers, the Unity Developers would report back and tell Chris the cause of these issues (or crashes) is because of loading an external (non unity) .dll file.*

    Because of this, Chris had no other option and had to completely remove the old map system and the loading of this external .DLL file completely from the game. And this is now where we currently are at.

    A new map system may or may not be added to the game in the future. There is currently no known ETA when or if this will ever be added.

    I am providing this information to the community as this is one of the most commonly asked question by almost all new and returning players.

    SUGGESTION: A mention that some scenes do or do not have maps could possibly be added to the Known Issues.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *This information comes from a stream several years ago when Chris discussed why he had to remove the old map system. I do not have a link to this stream, however, you can at any time, ask Chris about this in any of the livestreams. The Catnip Developers are always open to discussing many various topics in the weekly streams.
     
  2. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    6,334
    Likes Received:
    14,095
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I think we need more than this. We need a list of scenes where maps are not currently available, which we can see visibly diminish as they are added.

    "Some scenes" does not tell the player experiencing the issue enough; are they in one of those scenes, and if so, why doesnt the map work when they move over one scene (which also doesn't have one).
     
    FrostII and Anpu like this.
  3. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    10,817
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Does anyone know what, exactly, is involved in making a working map of any scene ?
     
    Alleine Dragonfyre likes this.
  4. Alleine Dragonfyre

    Alleine Dragonfyre Avatar

    Messages:
    1,746
    Likes Received:
    4,675
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Immortal City
    Let us all share a moment of silence for the map system so that we may gather all the good vibes towards getting a new one!
     
    FrostII and Anpu like this.
  5. NEILMHK

    NEILMHK Avatar

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    8
    If the map cannot be displayed in the game for the time being, it should be relatively simple to put the map on the web page first, so that new players can see it.
     
    Valdrynn Mal'thrynar likes this.
  6. magenta174

    magenta174 Avatar

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    As a new player I find it restrictive (and annoying) when I venture into an area and I cannot access a map. Some of the new player areas don't have maps. Having said I am a new player, a little background: I am a long time fan of Ultima. I pledged to SoTA back in 2013. I've tried to play many, many times but always "hung" on the load page. It's only now, this year, I have been able to throw away my old, old laptop and get a computer that I play SoTA on - 9 years. I find it incredible that the map system is still under review and not working well. 9 years I waited to play SoTA, and I'm not finishing quests because I can't properly navigate the unmapped areas because I keep getting killed. I will keep playing, but please, please find a way to get the rest of the maps up and running.
     
    Alleine Dragonfyre and FrostII like this.
  7. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    10,817
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    From your lips to the dev's ears !
    Maps should be very high on the priority list....
     
  8. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    3,051
    Likes Received:
    11,713
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Whilst I appreciate that "sotamap" - the old thing that was integrated into the game and then scrapped due to incompatability issues - is a non-starter, even the static, non-tracking maps being available would be a big help. If the maps still exist (in image form only, even) having them somewhere as a resource could at least be somewhere we could point people to. While dynamic, track-with-your-character-maps are nice (and let's face it, maps and minimaps is kinda Mmorpg 101 these days being one of the most core features there is), even having to tab out and look on a website for a map is better than "no map at all."

    To echo Frost, I too would like to understand what is required to get maps working. Is this something that we could assist with? In some scenes with "no map" Scoff and I used /loc coordinates and a lot of manual effort to make our own maps that were reasonably to scale to try and make sense of some of the more maze-y areas. (basically captured coordinates of interesting places, plotted it all out on a grid and then used an rpg map maker thing we use for our D&D campaign to tart it up). Is the "hold up" the actual creation of maps, and can we help?

    I know way-back-when, there were no maps at all other than the in-game maps that you clicked and it opened up and you-are-here. These were back in the old days when we had to walk up hill both ways everywhere...:x And it was playable, sure, and a lot of us got used to not having maps at all (I personally almost never use the thing, usually once to see if there is one, or if I'm trying to do some quest and the compass markers are being wonky). But it is a piece of feedback I hear a lot - usually its no "mini map" (showing nearby stuff, dots for monsters, etc) and then what, no map at all? This is madness! Even my non-gamer friend that I finally got to sit down and play the game ended up walking around in circles s and couldn't understand how to get where she was going, flailed about, accidentally walked out of the scene a few times, and never logged in again. Her first comment, 2 mins in to playing though? "How do I turn on the map overlay thing" and then dismay that there was no minimap so she could see where she was going. She had to keep stopping and opening map, wiggling her character to see which way she was going,(while bandits were shooting at her) etc. While I know the starter zones do have maps for the most part, the minimap feature is jarringly absent.


    I think part of the issue is that "back in the old days" scenes were a lot smaller and a lot simpler to navigate, too. Consider the sheer size of the outskirts scenes (and the horrible layout of solace bridge outskirts with the big chasm in the middle requiring you to go the long way 'round, every time." As a true newbie, who can't carry much and who is fighting with gear they've picked up off the ground, the back-and-forth all the way to town becomes tedious, fast. The other outskirts are the same, as introductory/tutorial scenes they are packed with content and quests, but they are way, way too big which makes it really easy to get lost. Even with a map. When I started playing, most of my starting experience was running around the handful of swamp scenes on the perennial coast and a large number of "open plan" type scenes where there were exits around the perimeter and the map was a big circle - (and the total size of the map was considerably smaller). Navigation wasn't nearly the pain point it is today.

    Bottom line is, if we're going to have HUGE scenes that aren't laid out in a straightforward way, the maps are kinda essential. Its good to understand the reasons why we don't have maps (Thx Anpu) but is there anything we can do to help get this addressed or can we perhaps get the old sotamap "overlay" (out side of game) that we used to have working again?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  9. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    7,090
    Likes Received:
    8,246
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Here is some basic information about the various maps in the game, as of where we are today from when I first posted this.

    Currently Ravalox is creating new maps for scenes (that are not dungeons) by hand, and they take him a long time to create. However, once they are finished they are very detailed and look gorgeous. :)
    In comparison to where we are now, many scenes now do have the new detailed maps. But we are still getting there...

    A small few dungeons still have a map, that at least work (for the most part) the rest do not. The dungeon maps that are still missing a map now have what is called a "Dungeon Card" which is some text that is displayed in the map area, that is different, for every single dungeon scene in the game that is still missing a map (this was actually fun to run and go find them all).
    The "plan" for dungeon scenes, is to have a new type of map system, that will include a "Fog of War" type system, in that the map will slowly be revealed as you explore through the dungeon.

    Due note, the intent and purpose of me posting this information originally , was solely for new players, they kept asking "how do I make maps work" in chat or on the forums. They thought there was something they needed to do, to make a map show in a scene that wasn't currently showing a scene. And I explained that in the original post.

    As for the "old map system" I'll explain again, as stated in the above original post, Chris had to remove the old map system, as it required the loading of a Non-Unity external .DLL fine, which the Unity Development team was stating was the reason for any bugs we are having, when Chris was reporting various bugs to Unity. So Chris had no choice at all, but to pull the old map system completely, so that Unity could not point to loading an external .DLL fine as to the cause of any reported issue. This is what I remember from memory.

    As for the priority of adding more maps to the game (as well as the newer Dungeon Map System), You will have to defer those questions to Catnip Games.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  10. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    3,051
    Likes Received:
    11,713
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    I understand we can't turn this back on and it had to be stripped out of the unity project because it was causing errors.

    What I was curious about (and it will require a dev to weigh in probably here) BEFORE the old map system was integrated into the game, it was a separate application that you downloaded from sotamap and ran "alongside" the game. If I recall correctly you could also add Points of Interest to it, I remember marking like all ore nodes and stuff :x It was very cool. Then it got bought by the devs as I understand it and they attempted to integrate it but there were technical issues (presumably these you mention with the DLL). What I'm asking is, is it an option, to get the "separate map application" back? Would provide a solution esp. if the map completionism is requiring a lot of manual drawing and will be a long term thing.
     
    FrostII likes this.
  11. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    7,090
    Likes Received:
    8,246
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    It’s entirely possible some kind of map system could be used in LUA. But I honestly don’t know very much about LUA stuff.
     
  12. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    10,817
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    This ^^^^ !
    Chris "owns" the old map system and could release it (OpenSource - where it could be worked on by many experts here in SotA) or just the .dll (and we could try it ourselves and Chris/Catnip would have no responsibility for any issues it may cause for "some").

    For the sake of the game, @Chris @DavidDC @Ravalox @Sannio , PLEASE DO THIS !