please go multi-guild

One of the thing directly here related to my concerns was the paragraph about your guild, it seemed very, come if you want if not bye... and that is straight away what I dislike about the full thing, Id prefer guilds to make you feel wanted, to encourage a community to do something, encourage you to stay and make long standing friends, that sort of thing, of course its nice to say we welcome you to do whatever, but that coldness was easily felt in guilds among GW and ESO, that they knew you had the option of going elsewhere so they aren't going to even try as much.

You can relate to this in modern day compared to older times, when people went shopping in the olden days, you perhaps had one clothes shop in a large radius so the owner was probably very nice to his loyal customers, these days if you go to a clothes shop there is so many of them that the staff know not to bother with the necessities of trying to make your experience on top form as at the end of it if the price (experience of guild in this example) isn't perfect, you'll immediately go to another.

The point about shopping for cookies, think of it like this...

If you chose one packet, you'd get home and put full amount of time and thought into consuming them... you'd care

If you bought all 3, you'd maybe try the first, then the second, and think wow the first is terrible compared to these, and throw the first lot out, in 2015 people don't have time to say, okay let me try it again... it would be a quick no, and the third might be better than them all, the concept is simple, when you have 3 of something you will value them individually less than if you are only allowed to choose one.

One thing to consider about the cookies, what if every time you went to buy them same 3 packs of cookies, they either started to deteriorate or over a few years not change one bit? and get kind of dated because the company manufacturing them dont care at all, because they think Oh... whats the point in maintaining this... This wouldnt happen in real life, but when relating to guilds... and my experience with multi guild games where I never even seen or knew who the guild leader was, and that's probably directly relating to the feeling that what is the point in putting a lot of effort in a guild when they have another 2 they are a part of, let us just specialise in one area.., there seemed to be clearly a lot more structure and thought into guilds when they knew their members aren't considering leaving asap soon as something new or better comes around.

 

Guilds are made from people.. not mechanics.

If a guild is slacking because they think you have options than do you really want to be part of that guild? I don't really buy that arguement in the slightest. When you choose a guild it's not a life long committment. Do anyone here think even for a second.. that if the game only allows for 1 guild per character.. that people will never leave one guild for another? That guild members will never hang out or participage in events held by another guild?

None of that has anything to do with game mechanics and everything to do with people.

To use the clothing store example that logic feels completely reversed. If there's only one store to go to, the owner doesn't have to work to gain customer loyalty. Where else are they going to go? If there are many stores there's a need to be competitive. If people have a good experience in your store they're more likely to come back despite their being other options. In either case, it's not a fair comparison because mechanics won't prevent anyone from checking out other guilds and potentially switching.

What holds a person to a guild is the people. If you're having a good experience in a guild it's because of the people. If it's a bad or otherwise lackluster experience.. it's again, the people. It's got nothing to do with whether or not the game allows multiple guild memberships or not.

 

It very much is the people that keep a guild going, and that is the point im trying to make, Multi-Guild Games, the quality of people in guilds is absolutely abysmal to my experience compared to that of single guild games, and either ive been unlucky, but in the multiple guilds ive tried in ESO and GW over the years, the players in them seem to expect high turnarounds of players, as they know there are a million options elsewhere, so I see the reason why people don't seem to care as much in them guilds, I also felt the same that whats the point of making strong connections in this guild where all I see often is "so so left the guild".

 

I always try to encourage people to shop around.. take your time. There are a LOT of lackluster guilds out there.. in fact I'd wager they make up the majority. Lot of people think how cool it would be to run their own guild but few can really run a great guild. Many guilds aren't terribly picky and will accept just about anyone.. but if you're looking to make bonds with a tight knit group you need to be picky about what guild you join.

There's nothing stopping anyone from leaving a guild for "greener pastures".. and I really don't see how single vs multi memberships changes that at all. That option is always there.

Once the game launches.. my guild's policy is that membership is essentially by invitation only. You need an existing member to sponsor you. We've never been a huge guild but we've always been tight knit. Multi-guild memberships isn't going to change that.. or any other aspect of how we run our guild.

 

sure! why not? +1

 

that is nothing like our guild. we aren't cold. we are calculated, but not cold. people have said we are the most personable and family-like guild they've ever met in gaming in recent memory. its the majority of the draw to our guild, actually.

please tell me if the coldness is here, in our charter. we do make you feel wanted, encourage the community (in and out of guild) to do things together, but if you don't wish to stay with us, we won't make you. we only want people who WANT to be with us. its what makes our atmosphere special.

which clothes shops do you go to, walmart? for sundries i'd go to a place like that becasue it is cheap. but for something like clothes, i go somewhere that has impeccable customer service. why? loyalty factor. they don't have all the clothes i want, so i go to other shops too. doesn't mean im' disloyal because i like multiple types of items, some of which my tailor does not bother dealing with.

yes, we do have the time. we have the exact same amount of time we had before, to do these things. it is what you do with the time that counts. same goes for guilds. if you are even halfway decent at time management you can put forth the effort you feel is needed to properly focus on multiple venues.

have you played more than one video game? no need to answer that, i'm certain you have. i ask because you seem to be ignoring basic human nature. we are social animals. why restrict how social we crave to be?

yeah, that doesn't happen here either. we have policies procedures guidelines. etc. mostly it is for how our council functions (flat leadership, no single figurehead, in game tyrants to facilitate hiarchy type leadership in games, out of game tyrants for facilitating meeting minutes, etc. everything is transparent to the membership, and everyone has a say, hence our name, elder moot . we have put more time into this guild than 90% of single-game and required-loyalty guilds.

so nice ta meetcha, i'm the leader of the sota chapter of the elder moot!

our primary focus is to make a place of refuge for our gaming friends, where it is a pleasure to play together, or just hang together. and we have somehow rolled a natural 20 on that..and it is working beautifully.

anyway, back to point here - as i've said before, in my experiences, i've had the opposite occur than yours. i'm sorry you have had such negative experiences with multi-guilding.

maybe it has to do with your philosophy on life - cause i have a very similar outlook on relationships in general, as well as the organizations i frequent and am a member of.

 

same here. we have about 35 active members. over 100 in total, who haven't been active in the last couple months, many have started new jobs or schools or both and jsut don't have time for it right now, but fully intend to come back to the fold. and once family, always family, with us.

had one couple get married, and they met through us, one moved from the US to switzerland to live with another, cause they just got along so well. another moved from japan to seattle to live with another. we've got daughter/father mother/son mother/daughter husband/wife groups in here, and bromances, and just about any combo you can really think of. one travels all over the world and the US, due to their job, and they've gone to dinner with almost every other member. so yeah, i think we're kinda tight knit too - and we've always been invite only, taking our time in vetting new members before accepting them into the fold.

 

This would effect people allot more than some realise. Doing it wrong would be a massive wrong move.

 

which is why i'm hoping we can come to a consensus here on not only what the technical challanges are - but what the motivations are behind each desire as well, and figure out something that as many people as possible can get behind.

tonight, i'm going to re-read page2 and see if we can drum up any other comments.

 

When replying can you keep personal comments to a minimum, I do not shop at Walmart for clothes for one reason being I don't live in america.

I work as a designer and one thing you fail to realise is its not all about what you want to do.

Im analysing my past experiences and having a guess as to why I think the issues with multi-guild experiences are bad on my behalf, and everything im suggesting is why I think a lot of people have similar issues, working as a designer I need to think of the market, the target audience and estimate their buying decisions, this is exactly the same way im analysing this multi-guild idea, im saying ive had a bad experience, and this is WHY i think that... because of all the options, the lack of enthusiasm in them guilds for the most part.

You keep mentioning about Oh well our guild will do this differently.. does this sound like a guild that will do this.. etc... its not all about you, or your guild, its about everyone else, thats the only way you can properly analyse or estimate how something is going to work, by focusing on what the vast majority of guild leaders and public will do and not just yours, you mentioned time management? Yeah you might have a lot of time to put into this game / guild for managing your guild, 80% of other guild leaders most likely wont.

In an ideal world it would be nice to see every guild have your enthusiasm, but like I said, im not expecting or would never estimate anything like that, as it just doesn't happen.


You mention im ignoring basic human nature, because we are social animals... Im for quality not quantity, id rather have one guild with quality members and quality talk then multiple with simple hi, nice to see you agains.. Quality to me is far more important in games like this than quantity.

And my personal philosophy would be for all of this to work out, id love it if you could have Quality multi-guilds, but like I said its not about one guild saying we can make this happen, In my job I have to be blunt and make realistic estimations, and for every 1 quality guild like yourselves, there will most likely be 3/4+ falling to pieces.

Ive contributed my opinion and the reasons why I think I felt this, and why I think similar people share the opinion I have, because as much as anyone can say Quality is easily maintained, Quantity always diminishes such.

 

thank you for asking, but when the time calls for eggs, i crack them. the walmart comment was not a comment on you personally, it was a response to your thoughts on loyalty and choices of places to shop. walmart does not try to enhance loyalty, they try to enforce it by their pricing, and in turn provide sub-par quality goods in many cases. context is important, especially in a forums, that is why i quote something, usually, before i respond to it - and not quote an entire post to respond to one item inside it.

incorrect. it is all about what i want to do. and you, and tahru, and amber, and violation, etc. if i wanted something to be all about me, i would make my own game. i don't, so i wont. i like the social aspect, this topic is all about a part of that.

see above, not a fan of repeating myself. . secondly, i was providing a counter point on my experiences, just as you were providing a point on your experiences.

i was providing an example of how some guilds actually work. it is clear that you had not had those particular experiences, or you would have said you did, so i was providing enough context for you to understand that it is not all about you, either.

you also say 80% of other guild leaders most likely will not have the time, or wish to put forth the time and effort. maybe that is why they failed in your experiences?

and that is why we will very rarely have a comeback of the days of yore where guilds actually meant something. do not lower your expectations, raise the bar and evolve with the times.

whomever said there can not be both quality and quantity, didn't ever expect it, demand it, strive for it. therefore they never made the effort to make it happen. again, raise the bar and you'd be amazed at what can happen.

ain't that the truth.. so again, don't screw over the good ones and limit what they can achieve together. let them decide if they wish to limit themselves.

as a designer, you should know that you should not say things like never, and always, unless it is actually 0% or 100%, - i'll grant you in this context that quantity oftentimes diminishes quality, but if the quality is high enough, it can not be tarnished.

 

This is quite worrying to read, you've basically summed up many of my concerns, your now a professional designer dishing out advice to people that know the trade, a professional guild leader, your basically the type im talking about that seem to think they can be the master of all trades when really they are of none. I guess you imagine your guild to be brilliant in every aspect...

Its nice to have optimism, but simply put, people will respect you better if you take your head out of your a... and also from the clouds while your dreaming up there about your unrealistic expectations.

We have two Very Very popular games as examples, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls online, both of which have multi-guild systems, I don't think anyone would argue that 70% or more of them guilds are an absolute waste of time, if it doesn't work for them huge scale / huge following games, its not going to work here.

Im a realist, and done with this thread as there is no changing people that seem to live in a fantasy world of unrealistic expectations, when there are examples already out there as to what kind of quality guild you get when implementing a multi-guild system.

 

A Ghost, I think there was some technical content concerns within those last few posts on both sides - dont' forget those too. again, thanks for the volunteer to write it up tomorrow-ish. have i said i do not envy you that activity? yeah, *twitch*


ok, back to the subject folks - am i right in thinking the following?

guilds. allow more than one but not many. keep the choices important, rulesets for them should not be incompatible. (i'm thinking a max of 2-3 actual guilds)

towns - PoT owner creates the channel. all it really needs is a way to communicate from leaders to citizens, for announcements, there will be a need for realtime "chat channel" as well as not-time-sensitive (like bulletin boards). maybe put a countdown timer on it, so two 'leaders' can't have a conversation that everyone sees? - should have a sort of group store for specialized/themed goods, open to the public. - maybe some sort of "public" zone channel for "loudspeaker" announcements to people actually INSIDE the PoT itself with a timer liek 1 per 30 minutes, to announce events, leader only.

societies - some may be secret so have option to not show a 'tag' on players name, needs a form of centralized location..maybe restrict to (underground?) places that you are not overheard conversing in? one way channel from leadership, like towns, for announcements? bulliten boards (put up in the meeting areas, accessable only to members) - this could also include things like a rotary club (what the heck do they do, anyway?), or knights templar, or crafting groups.

trade alliances - group store internal only, set a home base with crafting stations purchased/build, multiple bulletin boards for open orders to fulfill and to list what youc an make, for custom orders direct to you. no channel for chat, to avoid the eq1 auction-house feel, everrywhere you go.

clans - family-like structures with a chat channel, and honestly, thats about it. - maybe it adds an extra name at the end of your toons name like some gaelic clans did in the past?

cults (church of chaos, as a primary example) - option to play an audio feed (not open voice chat, an actual audio feed) at certain times of day/week for sermons. ability to request special times, for special sermons. - theatre troupes too, could do this, for their practices, while still using the aether radio for the actual plays, so everyone can listen if they wish. - i want to have the ability to listen to ambers sermon when i'm out there crafting, if i ever get up that early again on a saturday.

so..for towns, only if you have claimed a plot of land, or have trustee rights to a plot of land (for real life family members who share things, like the stormblessed, and phoenixfyre families), can you gain access to the system.
also, town leader should be able to create a "temporary" channel and send invites to those they wish to speak to - for coordination of events. then when the PoT owner leaves that channel manually, or logs off, it is removed from the system entirely.

only one trade alliance can be joined at a time.
youc an join as many cults as you wish, as they pop up, and have individual rights to turn off the feeds for yourself if you wish.
only one clan at a time.
as many societies as you wish, as long as they have not blacklisted each other, or if therre are whitelists, only those on the whitelist can be joined.
guilds too, with the black/white listing.

i feel that i missed some things? gah..

 

Thanks for the heads up.

I read it. The ad hominem and arguments from authority reminded me of bad Stakeholder meetings that I've attended (and led). Made me want to break out the eye spoon. And not a good one like this:

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Anyhoo, the "Group Type" concept that was proposed should enable all of the items and classifications that have been floated. Although for PoTs, I'd hope that the auto-invite include both lot owners AND building owners. Auto-invites I'd hope would have an opt-out, with town leadership (like guild leadership) empowered to re-invite that grumpy old farts that clicked "no" way back when. If it's successful, it could REALLY drive up the value of PoTs, since they'd have a key feature that NPCs towns didn't.

I still advocate that it's best to leave most of the "Types" up Darkstarr & Co. They have a vision. What we're discussing is a global change that could impact the core storyline, not just communities. For that reason, I plan to suggest that implementation be iterative. Start with 1 additional type, while we're in Alpha (if possible), and see how it works. There's no need to rush this. While I agree that 3-5 "Groups" (I'm NOT calling them Guilds at this point. The term is radioactive.) would likely be best, Thermo said it best.

This touches EVERYONE. Us, Portalarium, future Avatars, etc. I want this done right, as much as you & Tobias do.

 

It occurs to me that each classification would be best served if it had a distinguishing feature and/or benefit. For example, PoTs are exclusive to property owners and may auto-invite (like my homeowner's association). Can y'all help me understand how the proposed Groups are distinct? How they should work differently? Do any have disadvantages? Why should I care to join this type of Group? Thurisaz gave me some of this. I'd like more.

At work, we call it the WIFM. What's In it For Me?

 

Ok, well, how's this for a specification?

Admittedly, it's not as technical as I might spec to our own Devs. It that case, I know our own database schema and scripting standards. And since they're using Agile, I choose to go with a narrative storyboard instead of rigid requirements.

 

Nicely put together, Ghost!

Probably the only big challenge I see in implementation is what happens if different Group Types with chat options/channels are provided. The current Text Chat UI we have won't be sufficent for our needs; currently, it's not easy tracking several conversations, even with filters. This has been a concern that's been voiced before, especially at large event gatherings. My favorite example was the feedback from OoV's R13 Tournament, an event which attempted to organize 70+ viewers, fighters, RPers, and radio hosts. Most of this activity was done on the fly - an impressive feat- but many felt lost as to what was going on, even with Avatars Radio assisting via live commentary.

IMO, we'll see similar (and more widespread) occurences if we start to increase the number of groups that appear in the current chat window. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this particular challenge is being addressed as we speak, so this concern may be a moot point.

 

Jakdaw Foxlauden, I'd think the users would be able to filter the 'channels' to whichever tabs they want to show. Part of the suggestions i made were for example: the trade alliances are in a secure location that others can not "see" the conversations - so when you are in that "trade room" (akin to an EQ1 auction house zone) it works kind of like an auction house with the existing /s channel. using that methodology would also allow people to walk away from that physical setting, and not have to hear the auction spam when you are doing a dungeon crawl, or actually crafting yoru wares, or sitting back in your hot tub on top of your house, watchign the sunrise.

A Ghost - well done with the document. you stated you were going to stay away from the nym of "guild" in the document, but I see it all over the place. is that because it is an initial description of modifying the current guild system so they are still thinking in the same 'mode' to understand the proposal better?

 

Fair question.

I've chosen to avoid "Guild" for the more abstract, and neutral, "Group" here. In the Spec, it's relevant when attempting the reference or leverage the existing framework. A good storyboard makes sense to those creating the solution, so I choose to alternate in the manner used. I appreciate the feedback.

Jakdaw - You make a very good point about Lord Violation's concerns. Clearly, the Chat mechanism needs additional development, as he suggests. Although most of his suggestions are limited to the General Chat and don't Impact Guild Chat.

I could even see him leveraging the proposed Group framework to support his events. It may not fix everything, but might help. Expansion of Guild Chat may even serve as a forcing function, as it would reveal the limitations of chat that much faster. Thanks for the link.

 

im not crazy about multi guild, i feel like it devalues the guilds youre in somewhat, and people tend to be more non committal with multiguild systems.