Polearm Reach (Innate) Skill has to be removed (Sorry!)

Useless for attack maybe... but can't polearm can still be used for defense at close range? Like a staff?

And are there still staff attacks you can use at close range?

 

The problem here is what happens if your opponent grabs your pole-arm or ties it up somehow but yes you can use it to block with. (Just keep your hands out of the strike zone. ) So you're right you're not defenseless but your offense is limited. Mind you we're talking CLOSE range here.

 

Now we're talking.

How do you know it would be worse? For who? For all the people that don't even know what a MUD is or haven't had the experience to enjoy one? You can't have it both ways. You can't say that no one even knows what this is but man would they hate it if they played it. That's counter intuitive, and a jump in logic that is convenient to your point of view but not supported by facts.

Look, Shroud of the Avatar is a niche game, what niche are they satisfying? I don't think the devs even know the answer to that. But what I do know is this. If we think we're going to provide a twitch combat system that is somehow better than whatever all these other MMO's are making, we're crazy. All those other games are making combat the same way and frankly if that's what you're into, it's always going to be better than what we have here.

If we look at a game like Archeage, with their horrible unbalanced combat mechanics that focus on DPS nad CoolDowns, how in the world do you think we're going to OUT DO THAT? We're not. They went all out on that stupid system, and we're only going half in. We have this hybrid card deck system layered on top of what Archeage and other MMO's have perfected (I use this word as a negative).

We should be innovative and stop trying to nibble on the sides of a combat system that has failed to be fair and competitive for the last 20 years.

 

Above is a good example of a polearm (naginata - Japanese spear with a curved blade) vs sword (katana). You can see where the naginata is weak but also how it's reach gives weaker but more nimble player an advantage over a stronger , more armored swordsman or even against multiple opponents. Women , traditionally in Japan, trained in archery and in this weapon.

There is also the underlying class divide, spears & polearms were the weapon of choice by the peasantry while katana's were the weapons of the privileged class (samurais). The price of the latter - specially the best ones - was astronomical since these were made by master smiths. Naginata's were easier to make though the blade was usually of good quality.

Here's another food for thought, the katana is extremely hard to break but once broken is a useless piece of metal. A naginata with a broken blade can still be used as a fighting staff.

ps. the spear wielder in the video is not only a woman, she's on the US team & she's pretty good Those are experienced bokken (wooden sword) experts she's up against and they"re not holding back

 

Yea, polearms used to be put together with all sorts of farm blades. That's why you have both pointed blades and hooks, and spikes, all in different combinations, fused together.

But later on you had more professional polearms made.

 

Well considering that's not what I said to begin with you're making a moot point. My point was that MUDs are a very different beast. Just because it worked in MUDs doesn't mean it's going to work elsewhere. Different type of game.. different issues.. different standards.. Those of us with experience in older games are more forgiving and/or are used to different types of mechanics. Those who do not? Just read the forums and see how unforgiving people can be.

Also, the combat system in SotA is not "twitch" combat. Real time is not the same thing a "twitch". Let's be clear on that. As for the rest of your comments I think you might be putting the cart before the horse. For starters.. there's nothing wrong with using what works. That is.. assuming it really does work. Being innovative for the sake of it is not a guarantee of success. Besides they are trying something different. It's just very, very far from finished. Yet you sound as if you're judging it as a finished product and it's already an abysmal failure.

I'll say this again.. this is far from my ideal combat system but if it works and people think it's fun? Then so what.

 

MMO's are MUD's with graphics.

There's not much more to it than that. A MUD is not some crazy set of game mechanics. The whole reason that the phrase Massively Multiplayer came about was because MUD's were taken mainstream by adding graphics that were more relatable to "the masses".

Twitch gaming is arguably not relatable to a huge cross section of gamers. Folks that like single player RPG's, combat simulations, building games, and just about everything that isn't an RTS or an FPS. So "fun" can be defined in a number of ways without having real time action that's competitively in question at it's core.

 

MMOs are MUDs with graphics.. is oversimplifying in the extreme. Yes there's a LOT more to it than that. But this conversation isn't going to go anywhere and we're staying pretty far off the main point that brought us here in the first place. We've gone from pole-arms to MUDs.

 

IRL, when you gain skill with a polearm, you gain reach

its more about the body mechanics behind the weapon. With a specialized swing, I can hit a target with a white tiger-tail staff (waxwood) about 12-15 feet away. The staff is 8' long. A normal strike is more like 5-6 feet away.

same for my 6' quarterstaff - a really deep stance with momentum behind it, and a well relaxed strike, and some techniques can stretch the striking distance to 10-12 feet from where i stand to do the strike.

someone without skill while attempting strikes/techniques like this would probably drop their weapon, grip it so loosely that the strike was ineffective or easily grabbed, or maybe even fall over. you practice with the polearm, and you learn to swing it real far.

 

Show me a video of a real life polearm attack that successfully hits like the one in post after the OP.

 

Whilst not directly addressing Drocis' enquiry, I was quite impressed with this guy's videos. Amusingly he shows some proficiency for one dressed as a knife salesman...

 

Somehow I think the range shown in the video is probably a tad beyond 10-12 feet. But it is a moot point.. as is arguing over the currently unbalanced weapons.. being that nothing is balanced at all right now. Let the devs make the attempt to balance the weapons first. Then we can nit-pick whether the ranges are too far or too short.

 

And very little lag...
I only saw three instances of clear lag in the brawl and that was some 12+ fights

 

That's true...and generally speaking I don't see a lot of lag ever. The most lag I ever see is when I'm fighting someone in PVP and they're jumping and moving around erratically (like in the video I posted).

When you combine that with a polearm, it becomes near impossible to make use of range effectively, which is a huge disadvantage (it's more than that actually it's a huge improbability of success) for mages and archers. But it's also a problem for anyone not using a polearm and wearing platemail.

When I first got platemail I immediately went out and picked a fight with the first person I saw. It just happen to be captn crunch, a guy that loves to duel in the town of Owl's Head when he's bored. Also a guy that one a match in the Bear Tavern Brawl. Without even maximizing my deck, I had 16 slugs and only a 4 card hand, I beat captn crunch the first time in pvp. We played two more rounds and he beat me both times, barely. But the point I'm trying to make is that "skill" in pvp for this phase of development has almost nothing to do with actual skill.

If we reran the Bear Tavern Brawl I have no doubt that we'd have a completely different set of winners. Some of those might even be determined entirely by lag.

 

Well, f they are about to balance the weapons, they should get the feedback which ones are unbalanced and what is wrong with them.

 

I would not be surprised at this point if every single attack rating, hit point count, durability, price etc is just a placeholder. I'd say every single quantity in all areas is still subject to change.

 

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. In fact, I'll bet those values will always be subject to change. The devs are going to fix whatever they think is broken from now until the end of time.

But don't they have to know it's broken before they can fix it? I think that's where we come in. I think that's what testing is for.

I also think that testing is not just "if things are working as expected". I think that you have to test the design of a game too. And because the developers are not always so great at telling people what they expected stuff to do in the first place, it's always good to bring something up to them that doesn't make sense. Things like polearms that hit people from 30 yards away. Because if that's intended functionality it's a design flaw. If that's not intended it's a bug. Either way, I'm not planning to wait around for them to change their place holder values. I'm going to speak up.

 

I am more than a little surprised at some of the responses on this subject given that Ultima series fans tend to be a little more into historical medieval and renaissance lore. First of all, I think people have a Hollywood view of the sword. The Sword was never considered the premiere weapon in nearly any battlefield. It was ALWAYS the spear.

Records show both that from Europe to China and Japan skilled spearman mercenaries always fetched a much higher price then swordsmen. The spear was the king of the battlefield. For those who thinks it loses it's abilities once someone gets close...I think you need to watch martial artists and how they use a spear, and just how fast it is flying from right next to them to forward thrusts....and good luck trying to "grab it" before getting skewered.

This is a rather silly wu-shu performance display, but should highlight just how quickly and close to the person the spear can be used, and the speed of the thrusts. . ..trying to grab that which often might even be waxed or slick on the business end would mean some sliced fingers.

And yes in this demonstration the opponent takes the weapon...that's the beauty of wu-shu choreography vs actual martial arts. I think the speed and accuracy of the spear work gives you an idea of what the actual result would be.

The sword, and it’s myths are a result of it as a status weapon. It was the symbol often of warrior classes both in Europe and Japan. It was something also worn at court, and about town. Also if some lower class person got ahold of one they would not likely prevail against a trained swordsman. The Sword requires a lot more training and practice and finesse to master, so making it illegal to own or wear except for the ruling class, and its difficulty in being used by those not appropriately trained, had an effect of stabilizing the ruling classes hold on society. So yes knights and Samurai would wear their swords as status. However when it was time for war, the polearm was the weapon of the battlefield...it's like comparing a handgun to an assault rifle. (with that said, both the hand gun, and the sword tend to be better weapons in confined spaces, hallways, perhaps a tight tunnel etc. The Roman Gladius was perfect for narrow allies, it’s the urban weapon)

Of course the professional warrior would have an assortment of weapons usually. Pikeman in the Swiss region often would have the pike for the charging cavalry, and then fall back to the Halbard as their main weapon, which was a devastating weapon against footmen and riders alike, if someone should get a hold of that or get in closer, (closer like within a foot) they had a long dagger or short sword on their belt as the final back up within quick reach. The Swiss especially made great use of the Halbard, in an area considered at the time little more then a mountain backwater, locals were trained by a few professional in the use of the Halbard, and they ended up destroying several French Armies armored cavalry. A single armored Knight was like a tank, the cost of fielding them was expensive, and that a weapon would so change the fate, as to allow quickly trained farmers to quickly dismember them shows just how game changing the Halbard was.

There are more than a few legends about it. One of my favorite was that both the weapon and the system of fighting with it was developed by Templars that had fled to Switzerland after their persecutions in France....I don't know about all the myths it’s a fun story, but such legends say something about the degree of respect for the weapon itself especially in the hands of the Swiss. Their effectiveness spawned more then a few stories.

Beyond the tactics you can achieve with a good Phalanx unit, the spear even in 1 on 1 is lethal. Personally I think Historical accuracy is something that is a hallmark of RG type games, as he is quite a student of medieval and renaissance history. That we all suited up our parties with Halbards in the old Ultima games as the best weapon, always in itself I thought said something about the series being the thinking mans RPG. It's extra reach also made the tactics more interesting. I enjoy that about his games and iIn particular his interest in the time period where the dark ages, and the new enlightenment of the renaissance was changing everything. Weapons such as the Halbard, and the Crossbow are particularly symbolic of that era….and I hope that the game system feels the same. It would be nice to see a game reflect the realities of the medieval battlefield instead of just the movies interpretations of it.

 

I don't see any reason why this skill should be taken away.. To me it seems a valid Innate (tactic).

Reaching while fighting and especially in Heavy Armor requires a lot of extra strength (not that I have done it) but it makes sense on different levels.

 

Pole arm is working as intended