Let me start by saying, I usually lurk the forums. I might make a benign comment here or there but rarely feel compelled to wade into murkier waters. A recent discussion and moderation has prompted this post. I was reading about an even being held in a PvP town. A group of pvp players were planning to show up at the event and battle those there. Apparently this is considered an intolerable and heinous act! PvP in a PvP town is a problem ?!? I understand that this game will never be FFA full loot pvp. I can respect that decision. I can not support artificially protecting players in a PvP POT. These are the sorts of things that make mmo and pvp interesting. It adds a whole other dynamic to the game and infuses a bit of excitement. If you dont want pvp at an event, then do not hold it in a PvP area. Simple enough. I just wanted to see what others thought of this. Perhaps, I am missing some critical reason why pvp in a pvp town should receive negative attention? I dont think this issue required any intervention, but perhaps you have a suggestion?
I am a player who frequents Kahli, the PVP POT. The issue was not that there was PVPers who wanted to come, but how the person involved started and continued the conversation. Firstly, the reason why we RP in a PVP POT is because we value realism. If someone wants to fight us, fair enough, we are there. It adds to the immersion we enjoy in the game. Recently we were having a run of the mill talk in the tavern and a PVPer came in, she talked to us, threatened us, had ale and then killed one citizens. We went on alert, found her and tried to talk, she RPed it quite well, then tried to attack us, we killed her, fessed her had another conversation and she ran. It was all very good RP and gave us all storylines to deal with, some of which are still ongoing. The mead hall event that is being planned is open to anyone to come, but it is advertised as an RP event. We would appreciate it if anyone who wanted to come, would respect that and RP, not come solely to grief and kill us. I cannot talk to the first post that was locked and some messages were deleted, I took no part in that. The second post that was also locked, I did, and these are my reasons for posting there: The content of the post was designed specifically to call PVPers of any kind (RP red and non-RPers alike) to come to an RP advertised event for the expressed purpose of attacking and killing the RPers there. The reason for the attack event and, thus the attack, as stated in the post, was because the previous post (the advertisement) was moderated. My issue was that this individual was looking for people to expressedly take out off character issues into the game and disrupt a planned event. My personal point of view: If people want to come to an event and plan on killing RPers, please do! It will make things more interesting. But, please respect the RP of the event. Those in Kahli try to make a very immersive, intense RP experience and we would like to maintain that. If you want to come and learn how to RP, you are more than welcome! One of the strengths I feel RPers have is rolling with the punches, if you will. We are open to anyone and everyone. Why the first post was edited and moderated, I cannot speak to that. The second one is fine that it was moderated, but I would like to say that the reasoning why Cerus gave is not entirely the correct (thank you @Cerus nevertheless!). We enjoy combat (we chose to live in a PvP town), but as long as it is done fairly and for the enjoyment of all. I felt the second post, where I posted, was a blatant attack, an attempt to organize an attack through OOC means. What was the In Character reason? Does the character even know about us? Any of the other characters? Why are they organizing an attack through the forums in a clearly non RP sort of way? I hope I have made my point clear, and the point of my fellow RPers. If there is anything that isn’t clear, let me know and I will try to rectify it in a further post.
@Olthadir Thank you for providing some clarity. I am glad to hear that the pvp in and of itself was not the issue. Having played on RP servers for other games, I also appreciate that it is frustrating when people intentionally disrupt or mock RP. Within the context of this game though, I still find it difficult to justify moderation or any action by Port for this. Official RP handed down from Lord British, as far as I remember, is we are our real world selves transported to New Brit. How can a person showing up to an event "ooc" mess that up? Please dont take any of this as a slight against you or your town. Your town sounds amazing. You seem to really be taking advantage of all this game has to offer.
Kahli is great and has huge potential. Much like the game itself it just needs more players so I would encourage anyone interested in a RpPvp environment to check out the main thread on Kahli and pay us a visit.
I think Olthadir got it right on the point. But since he was not involved from the start, here is a bit of history to understand our reaction to this, eventhough I believe that no member of the group I RP with asked for moderation of Stundorn's event thread. This started with the announcement of a tavern night in Kahli (yes, a PvP town). The ennouncement got positive feedback, then got the feedback of one player who expressed the wish that some PKs would show up and "ambush the party crowd". (Logs of deleted posts anyone? PM me, I can help). As Olthadir stated, this is not the kind of attention we want for Kahli at the moment. Kahli is a PvP POT that finally managed to attract a few brave RPers to actually make their home there, and try to attract more RPers to at least visit occasionally, or also live there. so that this place can develop into a place of RPvP of roleplayed factions against each other. If you've ever played on UO Catskills or Europa, you know what I mean! Kahli's layout was made with this in mind: It is not one large town, but several tiny villages scattered across the map, ready to be taken by guilds or groups as their headquarters for such "guildwars". Sadly, most RPers I met in SotA are very reserved when it comes to PvP. For some of the people who visited events in Kahli, that was a very big step to expose themselves to PvP by entering our town. We have reason to believe that, should now in the early stages of us trying to build a RP community there, too much unenjoyable aggression happen (as opposed to the enjoyable aggression Olthadir mentiond above), that many people will forever stay away, thus making Kahli a ghost town (which it basically is except for one or two areas, one of which is where our tavern is located). I hope you can see why I think that someone wishing for PKs to ambush the "party crowd" in an event thread meant to invite roleplayers to an open PvP town cannot really be considered helpful. I messaged the person that had that wish and asked them to please re-consider their post and remove or change it. They did change it, but not significantly, and at the same time added another , somewhat aggressive post where they told us how to play in a PvP town. The thread derailed. I then asked Menja to please have a look at the thread and remove the posts, after giving up pleading with the poster in PMs. A moment later an invitation to an event appeared on the forums, where that person called for assistance in murdering the "party people" at the original event (he got the time and date wrong though). As a reason he stated the moderation of the posts in the original event thread. That thread is still there in the event section, please read it and come to your own conclusion. For most roleplayers, a clear distinction between IC (= in character) and OOC (= out of character) actions, agendas, feelings, etc. is crucial for good RP. Most roleplayers try to avoid metagaming: They try not to let the knowledge or the feelings of the player influence the actions of the character. Out of character you may be my very best friend, but IC we can be enemies that attack each other whenever they happen to find each other. And if I have OOC issues with someone, I should best not roleplay at all with them, because it would not be enjoyable for either of us, no matter whether we roleplay friendly or hostile. Most roleplayers have the goal for situations to always be enjoyable to everyone involved, even if IC there is intrigue, pain, death, broken hearts. It is a dramatic story we tell together. OOC vindictiveness has no place in that RP sphere. All actions must be justified through IC motives. Yes, there is the easy IC motive to say "well I'm an insane maniac that hates everyone and kills every living creature". Fine. That can actually be fun, if roleplayed properly. I cannot speak for all of Kahli, but I can speak for Helheim, which is the compound I have founded within Kahli, and we all -do- welcome conflict, both in words and in actions. We have fun trying to hunt the assassin down that quickly killed one of ours and disappeared as quickly. But Stundorn had no such IC motive. Not to my knowledge. Last I know, our characters drank together, made music together, even sacrificed to their gods together. Why would he suddenly look for a band of murderers to destroy his former friends and their guests? This is the issue I am having with this. And I think this is what Olthadir meant with "attack through OOC means". I, too, am available to clarify. Ask. Talk to me. Discuss with me. This game has room for a lot of playstyles.
I saw the first post for the event in Kahli, a few of us looked at going, and then our first collective response was, "oh, that's a PvP town, what a shame." While I wouldn't be against a bit of roleplaying-context PvP happening from time to time (as in the first example given), the reality is that most PvP folks are not interested in a fair fight, or roleplay - they are interested in ruining someone else's time. As evidenced very clearly here with the way events unfolded. I personally refuse to subject myself to "bored griefers" in any circumstances, so that excludes me from attending an event I might otherwise enjoy. The problem isn't with PvP itself, but with the mindset of some people who can only have fun by interfering with other people's fun. By having a "PvP POT" - whatever your reasons/motivations to have that ruleset in place are - you are opening yourself up to this and there are consequences. I find it difficult to believe you couldn't have meaningful roleplay without the always-on-pvp flag. Sure, you'd lose the spontaneity of an attack, but the alternative is your RP group being at risk of being steamrolled by bored pvpkiddies at any time or, your inability to hold events / reduction in turnout to events because a lot of people simply don't wish to put themselves in that position. That being said, having a "PvP POT" - you sign up for all that comes with it, so trying to police it seems a bit moot.
What we need for RpPvp is a proper guild war system like we had in UO which means you can control the whole thing properly and was fantastic. No idea why Port have even now got such a thing in place. It's a huge disappointment personally. @DarkStarr
@Helvig Ingvildsdottir Thank you for taking the time to reply and provide some additional information. As I said previously, Kahli sounds like a wonderful place. I feel that RP and PvP enrich this game and I am really impressed by your approach to bring it all together. My main concern is that PvP issues should be handled with PvP and game mechanics. Port should make the systems and then let us use them with minimal interference. What good are heroes without villains? Griefing behavior is rude and obnoxious but it also creates a need for virtuous players to band together to counteract it. Anti-PK Unite! Conflict like this creates fantastic opportunities to bring people into PvP and RP.
I agree, a fleshed out guild war system would be great. I would also like to see a murderer system like UO. I believe that it is these types of scenarios that make PvP more compelling and thus get more people involved in the fun. I have friends in other games that were reluctant to try PvP but got involved to help defend the guild or go after someone that was picking on lower level players. They did not want to go around killing everyone that they saw but within the context of the game mechanics, they felt as though they were fighting for justice and honor, which was enough to get them over their fear of dying or looking foolish.
In all other games I've stayed for years, I've never ventured into PVP areas. It's not a style of game that pleases me and it's exactly because of people who want to "kill at all costs" regardless of whether or not it's fun for the other player. I always focused on fun. In SotA, a few months ago, I was a frustrated Rplayer (I think the cool interactions that existed in some events, with "RP light", but had never been what I expected). And then, I saw a event in Kahli. My first reaction was "damn, it's a PVP town". But then I thought again "What if it's worth it?". And it really was. I think I've never interacted with such experienced and friendly Rplayers before (and I've done a lot of RP over 15 years in other games). Since then, I have participated in all the events, I help whenever possible because these people know how to do RP in a respectful and fun way. But, as Olthadir and Helvig quoted up there, a good RP is based on IC - and never take OOC "to the table". Intrigues, wars, conflicts ... this is often what turns the RPs (and has transformed in the last days inclusive. A simple attack in one of the RPs caused by a Rplayer that appeared in the tavern, generated a turnaround in the history of practically all the present there). This is funny! That's what made me accept pvp (even hating it). If the guy who created all this problem had said something like "cool, I'm going to participate and try to get people to interact too" (whether in pvp mode or not) would be quite different. But what he did, in my view, was to incite violence against all people there simply out of frustration (perhaps the same as I had in the past - being unable to do RP with anyone and feeling alone to do RP?). And that's not fun. I honestly don't see what fun it would be for a horde of PK's appearing in a place just to bust everyone for being RP. I think all the different styles of play have a place in an incredible world like this. And there is also no need to create a "war" between Pvpers and RPlayers. This community is so incredible, I think everyone can come together so that the fun is always greater. Edit: sorry for my English. It's not my native language. I hope there is no misunderstanding because of this.
"That being said, having a "PvP POT" - you sign up for all that comes with it, so trying to police it seems a bit moot." When I first read that phrase, I thought it made sense... that's how the things are, so we should just accept it. But after giving it more thought, I must disagree. We actually live in a full-time PvP world, where the "game mechanics" allow us to hurt others whenever we want. What stop most of us are the rules and social conventions. If you punch someone in the face at a boxing ring, you are an athlete. If you punch someone in the face at a club, you are a jerk. But you _can_ punch someone in the face no matter where you are. So, if we don't accept gratuitous violence in our lives, why should we accept it at an online game? Why is someone who punches a gay couple because it is not the "right way" to have fun (in the aggressor's point of view) frowned upon, but someone who rallies a mob to kill people who are having fun in the "wrong way" (again, in the aggressor's point of view) is just enjoying the game mechanics? As others have said above, if you have a good reason to bring PvP to a RP session, you are most welcome. We are here to have fun, and conflicts between characters are part of it. But if you want to bring PvP to a RP session just to prove that we are doing it "wrong" (i.e. "You are RPing in a PvP area, so you shouldn't complain if I bring a PvP group to a place I never go just to be a party pooper and force you to move to another place") you are just being a jerk. And this kind of attitude is not welcome.
I cannot say things better than what Helvig, Fei, Olthadir and Katrina have said, so I will not try to other than give a perspective from a new role player whose has made the leap to living in Kahli, and why intent matters. Up until a few months ago, Hannah was a very lightly role played brewer. I would visit a few happy hours in character, but much more time OOC. I run very OOC dance parties every few months (and still will - Oktoberfest is coming!) The first time I went to an RP event in Kahli, I was worried since it was a PVP POT. My only experience of it was 20 years ago in UO, where I lasted only two weeks (despite growing up loving the Ultima series) due to being grief killed over and over. So dipping a toe back into it was a little scary. But, the event was wonderful - no griefing at all, lots of good conversation, and yet couched with a certain amount of everyone needing to be alert since we could technically be attacked. And so I started coming Kahli more and more, each time getting a little more comfortable with it being PVP, discovering that here in SotA, not everyone will strike you down the moment you flag PVP. This was a revelation, because RPing where you might be attacked for an in game role playing reason is great! And so I placed a House in Kahli, because I can see a candle lit there to encourage a whole range of role playing, some of which can yes include PVP, but which has not yet included killing or griefing for OOC or out of game reasons. Heck, my character is taking a break from Kahli because she almost starting attacking her friends due to the in game story events we were playing out! I want the candle that has been lit in Kahli to become a bonfire for role playing of all kinds. Yes, it is PVP town; no, I don’t ever want or expect Port to intervene in game for what happens there- heck, I would love it if a bandit or mad wizard attacked me while traveling through town, if there is an in character reason and it not just a grief fest). I hope what happened (someone trying to incite straight PVP for no in game or in character reason other than he was moderated out of game and wanted to show “dance/tavern RPers” how RP is “really”done) is a one off. There is so much potential at the moment, but what I saw recently can easily snuff out the candle. Intent matters.
