So what exactly do we mean by chaos anyway?

I like all the talk about chaos (<ahem> @Darkstarr) in the hangout. And @Myrcello's post on the chaos medal got me thinking about a fun discussion. Not trying to poke at chaos devotees, here just have some fun.

So, what do we mean when we talk about chaos?

Think about it. To talk about chaos we need a word. A word exists only within a language, and a language is very ordered in terms of grammar. In this instance those who talk about chaos make themselves slaves to order.

Also, chaos in-game depends on a whole bunch of things that are ordered - programming, game rules, etc. It's ordered in the center of the magic sigil, it relates to other things. Even being against something is defining oneself in terms of something else. Order.

Plus, some things that appear ordered, let's say like a fireball spell, have a chaotic element in a random number generator. (And is a random number generator truly random? hmmm.)

In general usage, chaos is the word that is used to describe something that is unruly and confused to some extent. But real chaos - total chaos would be complete disorder. This would not be fun at all in a game. 2 minutes of white noise and random images and people would be gone.

How chaotic is chaos? Is chaos more in the sense of revolutionary - upending order, but ultimately establishing a new one? Or is chaos really designed to be nihilistic - destroy everything, nothing matters! Why would a truly chaotic person acquire skills or items? If someone was truly and fully nihilistic, chaos would lose to all the order afficianados dutifully following the skill trees and looking for the best equipment. But chaos doesn't want to lose I imagine... does chaos have to follow order to win?

Is chaos really that chaotic after all?

 

Good question! I would like a better understanding of the differences. Can we expect evil in "order" and good in "chaos". I like the old D&D pen and paper alignments, but only because they were easily understood.

Maybe the leaders of Order and Chaos (Richard and Starr) will publish some thinking on the two, because it sort of puts a rift down the middle of the old D&D alignments (in my mind).

I want to play my character well, maybe the rift is a way for good and evil to exist in both orders. I hope it's not punishing. I would consider my character- True Neutral with a splash of Chaos and at times a respect for Order--I hope I don't end up being punished or not being able to finish the game for playing myself from Earth.

 

Chaotic souls are not directly opposed to order. Chaos is more of a "free soul" mentality, whereby adherents avoid frequent application of the standards of order. The two ideas are juxtaposed against each other, but they are not in direct conflict, except amongst those would claim to be purists of either ideology. In fact, just as chaos cannot be without order, so too does order require chaos.

Such are the considerations of fate. Do you claim to be so wise as to know the nature of all things? What influence of this ruinous world--of the terrible kobolds, insatiably bloodthirsty--of the wicked undead torn from the peace of death, cursed to walk this world forever--of the satyrs and the demons and of every manner of terrible creature set by this world to malice by or under the pain of torment--what influence speaks to you of order? If the makers of this world regarded order in the way as do some of Order's modern zealots, surely those makers must have been flawed, for chaos and order both are everywhere and alive in all parts of New Britannia. One needs only step outside the protection of home to see it.

The magic of the mages of Chaos is wild and uncontrolled. This is the way of primal force. They seek an easy and natural tap for their power, and what they find is a product of fate, more so than the controlled magics of other sorcerers. While nobody can truly begin to guess whether the powers born of Chaos are truly random in their strengths, it is because the source of Chaos magic is implicitly disordered, crafted in an instant and in the moment rather than with careful study and practice. Perhaps trends for such practices could be measured. If they ever were, however, surely the minds of the casters of Chaos magic would be changed by that knowledge, and the magic produced would take a different form.

This is hardly the desire of followers of Chaos. Rather, where the followers of Order seek to impose their imperial structure on all, followers of Chaos define themselves in opposition to that assimilation. Followers of Chaos are free to negotiate their own order, just as they are free to oppose any order that is imposed upon them. As a belief system, Chaos values freedom and individuality. Followers of Chaos are not inherently evil, just in the same way that followers of Order are not inherently good.

I believe the above answers should serve to answer these final questions. May the light of the broken moon follow you always.

 

I liked how Chaos, Order and Balance were represented in Serpent Isle.

I do always find it odd that @DarkStarr is a producer and his character is supposed to represent Chaos. Producers are usually the ones that set schedules, budgets, etc. Their job in real life is to enforce order and structure.

 

Maybe. But as a product manager, I tend to do the opposite. Continually challenge the team to do things they tell me are impossible. You're basically the "right brain" counterpart to the engineering team challenging the rules and status quo.

 

Lots of people like to use games to do things they can't or won't do in real life. I personally don't see a producer playing a disorganized character to be that far of a stretch. Still, that's not what Chaos really is. Rather, Chaos is an ideal that promotes individualism and agency in opposition to Order, which is an ideal that promotes service to a cause and subservience to a ruler. A follower of Chaos can be quite the neat freak without being a hypocrite.

 

Thank you! That is the most intelligent and comprehensible thing I have read in these forums so far. I hope they publish something like this someday! Understanding your description, I find myself being mostly about the Chaos or "freedom" as you put it. Thanks!

FREEDOM!... FREEDOM!... FREEDOM!

 

First thanks for the in-depth answer! You confirmed a lot of what I was guessing people understood chaos to be. But now I know from at least one chaos devotee!

I would have a further question: how do you determine when something rises to the level of an "imperial structure" that must be opposed? Certainly children of chaos devotees would not be free to consider their parents an imperial structure and use that as a justification to do what they wanted? Or another example, if a merchant cheated you because you were a rich chaos mage would you demand justice based on some kind of ordered system?

It seems like what you're trying to balance is legitimate control and legitimate freedom. Those who follow order I imagine are not opposed to legitimate freedom and those who follow chaos are not opposed to legitimate controls, but where is the balance? If you lean one way does that make you "order" vs leaning the other way as "chaos" like a spectrum of beliefs? Or do those who follow order focus their work on eliminating illegitimate freedom while those on the chaos side work at eliminating illegitimate control? I like this second way of thinking about it better. But it doesn't explain the chaos association with fate.

Could two devotees of chaos be opposed to one another - one thinking that a form of control is legitimate while another thinking the opposite? (Same for order devotees). Or are there common shared principles that all follow?

In any event - chaos and order to me will be terms that @Eli Fox said need to be defined. Otherwise, how exactly will we know when we're supporting one or the other in game if they are being measured like all the virtues?

 

I learned yesterday that Chaos is something you eat cereal with...

 

You are most welcome! I do hope you found it entertaining and helpful.

The sentiment of opposition to Order's imperial structure doesn't define the efforts of Order as a cause as imperial. Rather, it establishes a dichotomy of an assimilation effort vs. an anti-assimilation effort. Because Order seeks to impose moral and ethical standards upon people, its followers belong implicitly to a kind of union. This is where things get a little confusing because Order is a named effort (like an organization) while order (lower case o) is an idea. The named effort exists because people are human; many followers of Order seek to impose their beliefs upon others. This is how Order becomes a sort of empire, while Chaos, itself a named effort, exists principally as an antithesis to Order (or, perhaps more accurately, the efforts of zealots of order to impose their beliefs upon the unwilling).

It's not a polar belief system unless you make it so. One who values chaos might also value order, in the senses that any ordered system is implicitly imperfect in its order and that that system's imperfections can arguably be considered genuinely valuable to the system, as though the system couldn't be what it is without its unique quirks. Just like people. This is why I say the ideas aren't in conflict unless someone tries to apply one of them to something in a comprehensive way. Like you noted, a system defined entirely by chaos would crumble apart, while a system defined entirely of order would appear to the outside to be heartless and cruel. This is also why it's hard to talk about chaos and order as beliefs, since they actually properties of systems, not beliefs (remember what I said earlier that someone who values chaos might still willingly submit to order). Still, there are those who value the extremes, as though the extreme is the only way their vision of the ideal can be realized, and that is the origin of conflict.

If RG and Starr stick to tradition, order and chaos won't have anything at all really to do with the virtues. Both sides can use the virtues to justify actions of almost any kind, depending on how the virtues are interpreted. The virtues are separate ideas that, because of their abstracted natures, are vulnerable to meaning almost anything to different people. Remember, Order doesn't mean "good," nor does Chaos mean "evil."

 

, I hope that Order and Chaos ARE (or can be) rigidly defined within game context and aren't just ideas that players bring their own definitions into the game for. If they are such important pieces of lore as to represent two stark separate philosophies personified by Darkstarr and British then to NOT do so would be a great injustice to the game world. Alluding to grandoise ethereal notions like this sounds cool and all but if they aren't specific (and different enough from our assumed definitions) it might ad well be good/evil / light/dark.

They also need to be careful as to not make the dichotomy between the two as childish (I dare say) as Bioware tends to do with their alignment sliders in their games. I would be pretty disappointed if the best representation of chaos ingame is just "the evil option". A delicacy of morals needs to be represented or it's just going to be more of the same, which I know is not the point.

Additionally it would be disappointing if the philosophies simply represented one of two "options" eg Bioware that adds a tick to your alignment. It's difficult to properly implement something so abstract (I'm sure RG knows from work on the Ultima games ) but it would be Nice if the way you actually roleplayedd your character or even your personality itself and potentially less so your A or B choices in the gamethat would more define your affinity.

We don't know though: How much choice are we going to be given in terms of subscribing to chaos or order? Will it be either/or? Will there be a neutral path or is it all irrelevant in terms of game mechanics?

 

I'm sure they will be. I'm being broad with my language because we don't have that information yet, but if UO is anything to go by, Order and Chaos might well be actual organizations within the game.

Also, Order does not mean good, and Chaos does not mean evil. I don't expect there will be a slider, as these concepts have more to do with role playing and personal perspective than with ethics or morality.

 

I hope you didn't end up with an earful of cereal. Chaos can also be used to catapult cereal during a FOOD FIGHT!

 

Ok this raised two questions for me.

First. is there really a capital O Order and a lower case o order in game? I thought it would be more like a lower case o order not something that was an organization. Because in the sense of organization, captial c Chaos would be an organization as well. Maybe not as structured but coordinated to achieve a goal.

Second, the issue of imposing moral and ethical standards is a tricky one. I would suspect that even chaos devotees have some moral standards that they want everyone to follow. (e.g. don't lawyer me bro!) I don't want to tap into the larger issue but when it comes right down to it everyone has moral standards. Even the idea that one shouldn't impose a behavior is a moral standard that you are asking others to live by. It's a tricky philosophical point. To say that one shouldn't impose a moral standard is itself a moral standard. Plus, when you get right down to it I don't think anyone believes there should be absolutely no moral and ethical standards. And I don't think on the opposite side anyone believes that absolutely every action should be dictated by moral and ethical standards. So in between that, order and chaos float I guess with some ideas about what is too much freedom or too many moral standards.

This gets really tricky. Like you, I would be confused if this is somehow tracked like the virtues.

 

Amusing, amusing, Although might i say Eli has it more accurate. Imagine eating with it not knowing where the food will go, in your mouth perhaps your ear? or who the food will go to, stuff the cereal in your friends ear?... Tho truly it is not intended to be eatten with at all. Might I also add that not many survive the confusion that takes over their minds when they are not meant to touch said spoon ~smiles~ It has been documented, that my ancestors have left many a follower of "order" with a bit of a headache. Spoons *do* hurt more when delved into the forehead of those that should try to rise against our Liege DarkStarr.

As per the rest -- Chaos is not good nor evil. Chaos just is! Chaos allows for differences, what may be the "norm" is challenged. Look upon the virtues, question them, expose their weak spots and show that not all is as "orderly" as it may appear. In said, chaos also does need a form of order. There is balance, I am not completely opposed to order. I believe for example chaos needs an army, which in and of itself needs some form of order or they are merely offing each other (think the orcs in lord of the rings) instead of those that would serve Lord British!

Chaos is also the ability to do what is least expected of you, while still doing what you might expect.

For Example the following pictures:

It is well known - I agree completely with Richard Garriott that we should be able to bake our enemies and their Liege into a pie! Something of course Starr Long feels is going *a wee bit too far*

​

Exhibit A: How does it say is best to off Lord British? Oh Look! a plague and he is resting beneath it. How my chance at making a pie is within my sights, but i turn away momentarily to speak with a friend and leave him be. Note: a person of order would have quickly taken the first chance to be rid of thier enemy and dropped the plaque on his head.

​

Second Picture: I exit the home of my friend, to find Lord British has moved slightly away from the sign, smart thing to do truly! However, as I reach for my spoon i am torn, how easy it would be to walk up behind him and bop him upside the head knocking him unconscious as he sits unaware of his surroundings. Or further to drive the spoon viciously into his skull to dig out the filling for my pie! It would be expected of me. Even my friends tell me to keep my eye on him, and I do. However my actions again go against what would be expected of me, I do completely what none would have imagined.

​

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Exhibit C: I sit down and find humour in the chaotic wench watching the sky for hours with the one that called her such!


That my friends.. is Chaos ...

However, next time he may not be so lucky

 

Chaos is revolution, change and the defiance of order;
The planet Uranus is named after the revolutionary and uncontrollable. This is seen by the planet's defiance to sit strait and behave as the other planets do. In Greek mythology, Uranus personifies the sky. Uranus is son and husband of Gaia, the Earth, with whom he had the Cyclopes, Titans and the Hecantoncheires Uranus imprisoned Gaia’s youngest children in Tartarus, deep within Earth, where they caused pain to Gaia. She shaped a great flint-bladed sickle and asked her sons to castrate Uranus. Only Kronos, the youngest and most ambitious of the Titans, was willing. He ambushed his father and castrated him. After his castration, the Sky came no more to cover the Earth at night, but held to its place, and the marriage of heaven and earth was no more. he is also Prometheus who stole fire from Zeus for mankind. Thus he has always been the rebel who could never allow the gods to have control over man threw tyranny.
Lord Trenyc and the others I believe are correct, "Good & Evil are not related to Chaos". But stealing with justice in mind depends on who is, or which side is judging it...
~Time Lord~

 

It's not really that complicated. It just seems so because RG and SL used the proper nouns Order and Chaos to refer to their respective organizations. In this sense, I'm using it in a similar but markedly different way. Where order with a lower case "o" refers to the abstract idea of order, Order with a capital "O" refers to the group of people who do things in the name of that abstract idea. It's the same with Chaos.

We don't know for sure if the game will have organizations devoted to order and chaos or what those organizations would be called, but I think it's safe to say with so many UO vets around that that conflict of zealotry will be present within the community, even if it's not explicitly supported by the game. Like with other ideas that attract followers, though, the people who name themselves devotees to Order or Chaos aren't necessarily doing things quite right, just like people who do things in the name of abstracted ideas tend to muck things up in real life.

It's actually pretty easy to understand by comparing to real world religion. Take Christianity for instance. While a well read bloke might come up with a very accurate idea of what Christianity actually is (or should be) in its truest form, there are lots of Christians out there who for various reasons practice their beliefs in very, very different ways. Some use and have used extreme violence and prejudice to forcefully impose their beliefs on others. While these people aren't representative of what our well educated gentleman knows Christianity actually is, even he cannot hope to convince them that they are not Christians at all. Just like many Christians, to widely varying degrees, don't quite fit with the ideal form of Christianity, so too do most devotees to Order (or Chaos), to varying degrees, fail to hit the mark exactly perfectly where it comes to the integrity of their beliefs in accordance with the object of those beliefs (order or chaos).

About the religion bit: I used Christianity because it is probably the most accessible religion for the greatest number of people on these forums. The same can be said of many other religions, especially the largest ones.

You can probably see now how these things happen with people. Generally conflicts of ideology happen when two popular, powerful, and mutually exclusive ideologies are brought into contact with each other because the integrity of many beliefs is compromised by pride. So maybe Chaos forms as a response to the most extreme devotees to Order, as a way of opposing their ambitious campaign to impose their rule on all. Or maybe Chaos formed in the infancy of Order, as simply an antithetical choice in a world where chaos and order (wrongly) are perceived to be opposites. The thing with the decisions people make is that people (even Avatars) are imperfect. The data they use to make decisions are imperfect. While it might seem perfectly sensible that practice of a belief system should be informed by the object of belief, that is only very rarely the case because humans aren't very good at sticking to ideals. I could write you an essay on why that is, but it's a bit outside the scope of my point. It's not worth trying so hard to explain why people do the things they do unless you see it straight away. You'll just end up twisting yourself in circles around the ideal form of that decision trying to understand the flaws in the real decision when the real decision was probably influenced by a thousand different things instead of just one: pride, ambition, avarice, government, anarchy, jealousy, love. In the end, a thousand different followers of the same belief system might end up doing very different things in any given situation. Any individual person will make whatever sense of things his or her experience and personality allow. "Do as I say, not as I do."

You're quite right, too, that the idea of imposing order on others is a tricky one, and that's part of what drives the intrigue of the Chaos vs. Order dynamic. Because these are not concepts of morality, neither side is completely right or wrong. While Chaos might appeal more strongly to the most basic impulses of people because of the level of freedom it promotes, control unchecked is equally dangerous.

Lastly, this post has been pretty much entirely OOC.

 

Like being a secret devotee of order? How's that for a mind bender!

Loved your story about pie. Mmmmm. Pie.

 

Ack! NO religion stick with philosophy. That is an imposition of order!

In this description how is chaos not just another ideology that needs to be opposed? Is chaos just order in disguise like NotChris down at the docks? Fun for a few laughs and then get back to work... yeah we need to eat and build stuff and interact with people?

If I oppose chaos does that make me even more chaotic or a proponent of order?

Let the mind warp continue!

 

This actually brings up a thing RG said on the vids (don't lawyer me bro) that is very similar to the topic here of what is Chaos and what is Order. What I want to bring up here is that RG said that if someone were upsetting the group or meeting they are attending where many want a ruled behavior about all of it, and then there's one guy who is just out of hand, walking all over the place and being a nuisance, RG said that everyone could then "Bad Karma Them" , thus effecting that players Good/Bad karma. Yet when I equate that to what's being said here, I find that they should more properly be "Chaos'ing Them" because the player is not good nor bad, because they have not hurt anyone, yet is expressing his or her freedom of speech and freedom of movement. the same can be said about a gathering of Chaos, where some Domineering Player trying to keep Order, could be..."everyone "Order bob" he's being a control freak.
So, what I'm pointing to here is that Karma and Alignment are different, yet are being applied ingame as good and bad...
"And I don't know how I feel about that having stated what Chaos and Order is"...
How do they relate to such a thing?
Any thoughts?...
~Time Lord~