So what exactly do we mean by chaos anyway?

BTW my whole point is not to argue against people playing "chaos". I'm all for having fun with that!

I just really don't believe there's a common understanding, and a non-problematic description of what it is and what it means. If I was going to adhere to order or chaos in the game, I sure as h-e-double-hockeysticks would want to know what that actually means! I don't have a clue of how I'm going to play SoTA yet. No team here yet.

 

I'd say you are Team Lake.

 

Yea, in absolute, its difficult to understand a philosophy of chaos as anything other than contrarianism. But also, its difficult to understand a philosophy of order in absolute as anything else then authoritarianism. In the real world, you'll find few people who would claim to believe in chaos for the sake of chaos or order for the sake of order, and I would expect they would be really shallow philosophies in practice. Belief generally has a practical component to it. If anything, they're not philosophies or belief systems, but, rather, temperaments.

In terms of SotA, I see chaos as a principle as representing the creative force in the universe. So-called, because in perfect order, nothing changes. This is seen in the ability of a chaos mage to shapeshift, albeit randomly, and summon demonic forces, albeit outside of his complete control. I'm also guessing that chaos elementally is connected to Ether, and blackrock (now obsidian), and represents magic in its purest form, which is wild. Magic only gets more tamed when channeled into more specific, orderered structures (natural elements).

 

Sounds like you guys are arguing which of the sciences, if any, Chaos is qualified under. Which I think is a lovely topic for debate.
Is it a philosophy? A code of conduct? A religion? Or is it quantum possibility or quantum energy itself? Is it the following of the teachings of Chaos magic? Hmm.

 

Principia Discordia (I highly suggest the reading list on this site for all inquisitive minds, esp. Prometheus Rising & Quantum Psychology)

Did you know May 23 appears to be the Day of Discord? Celebrate CHAOS : eat an APPLE !

Discordian Events are rumored to be happening in London, Brisbane, Austin & more!

Universe appears as Chaos (see Darkstarr motto), each of us seems to be a chao, a single unit of Chaos. Our minds, through the senses of perception, seem to act as Negative Entropy Machines working desperately to create Order ("Sense") out of "Things"

 

Being a follower of chaos, I think this is actually a good way to describe it.

I don't see there being any overall commonality between followers of chaos, as each will have their own personal interpenetration of their own belief system. I see it as coming down to an individuals moral standings. Looking at the real world views of chaos being a lack of order is not the best approach in my eyes. Chaos and Order, to me, are better views as a belief system, instead of a hard and fast set of rules.

Take a comparison between my character, and Amber's character. Both of us are strong followers of chaos, but in fairly different ways. Amber's character is a devoted follower of Lord DarkStarr, to what would almost be considered a fanatical level (don't spoon me Amber!!) She would lay down her life of DarkStarr, and would follow his every command. Where as my character, though being a follower of chaos, does not see DarkStarr as his Liege/Lord or anything along those lines of being the figure head of the 'chaos' movement. Instead, my character sees DarkStarr, as just another follower of chaos, who has his uses in spreading disarray and confusion among the 'organized' Order of the world. If the situation arose where DarkStarr became an obstacle to my character, he would have no issues fighting him. My character is also one, who would accept a contract as a body guard, and the put his ax in you back, because he doesn't like the way you bite your nails.

To me, 'Chaos' is similar to the anarchy movement. Trying to disrupt the social norm, and status quo of the world as a whole. Living by ones own personal moral code, instead of that which has been set by 'society' to be the accepted practive. Again, my personal opinion on the meanings of Chaos in New Britannia.

 

I like everything you say except I don't understand this. The universe, human beings excepted, follows physical laws and is perfectly ordered according to them. But things change within it. Plants for example grow within the strict boundaries of cause and effect that define biology and physics. So to me, change can happen in perfect order.

Again, just being devil's advocate here....

 

That is an extremely good question. Cowbell gave one possibility up a few in the postings.... that order and chaos are illusions. If they are, then it's silly to subscribe to either label.

Yeah, so what kind of a "thing" is chaos anyway?

 

Which is amusing considering one of the concepts of "Chaos Theory", in that "the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable".

So in the Order of universe there is Chaos.

 

I like what you say but then anyone could call themselves chaotic and get away with it, and who's to say they're not? My example of a militaristic fascist dictator who names his empire, "Chaos rules!" If you have some standard by which you are calling both you and Amber chaotic, then you have some operative definition of how chaotic you have to be to be chaotic. Or are you saying anyone who calls themselves chaotic is chaotic?

And I also know that I will not be hiring you as a bodyguard.

 

Chaos theory describes chaos in a very particular way. One that admits that initial conditions matter and sensitive dependencies exist that aren't initially obvious. Doesn't necessarily rule out the determinism of physical laws in the universe. It's called chaos theory for a reason and no one has definitively proven it to be true. Ultimately chaos theory proponents fall into the same philosophical problems we are discussing.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chaos/

Read that if you dare - it's a snoozer!

 

Yes, "Chaos Theory" is a theory attempting to predict what we term as "chaotic" results, by attempting to understand all the underlying rules beforehand.

It is really a theory of the "Order" of the universe, just with a really odd name.

That being said : Attempting to understand *every* rule in a set of near infinite possibilities is itself a chaotic idea in my mind. So perhaps the name is fitting after all.

 

Sure, that's a fair point, and I think depends largely on the meaning implied by "perfect order."

As an example, though, consider that religions which hold thta everything is part of a divine plan, and so everything in the world is subject to a moral order, still also hold that Earthly things, individually, are imperfect and finite, in that everything changes and dies; and the only thing perfect and infinite is God. A "perfect order" might refer more to what would be ephemeral structures as being perfect -- unflawed -- and unresistant to change, and untied to some larger cycle of death and rebirth ; rather than just a general belief that things follow laws and principles in their own way. A plant that never dies, a person that never loses power, an empire that never falls.

In the game world, my guess, ether would in theory be a perfect and pure substance, if it were isolated, but it can't be isolated from the cause-and-effect of reality, so when its tapped, its uncontrolled and chaotic, except in the hands of someone who can marshal its force.

Remember, ether is the quintessence, a supposedly heavenly substance.

 

In this case, I am basing 'Chaos' simply on the fact, both myself and Amber, are opposed to the religious doctrine of belief in the 'Virtues' and their exploitation by Lord British as a way to control the populous, by using them to form the overall social moral structure of New Britannia. As I see it, Chaos, in the context of SotA, is not a set of rules or comparative guide lines, but instead is the lack there of, where a person follows their own moral code. Is one person more chaotic then the next? That is down to personal interpretation. Trying to quantify chaos into a set of rules and guidelines so you are able to say 'this is chaos' is in fact, creating order. Which based on the nature of chaos, in theory, is not possible.

Many people can, and will claim chaos as the reason for their actions. And many more will be labeled as a follower of chaos for the simple fact their actions do not follow the social guidelines of New Britannia.

Looking at Chaos and Order in the context of real world laws and physics, such as chaos theory etc, is trying to apply the laws of physical nature, to a social and psychological topic. Chaos is not a tangible 'thing' in that regard, when used in the context of a persons actions and choices.

Again, all personal views here.

And my character is a good bodyguard, just don't annoy him, and then go to sleep

 

secret devotee of order,
In words spoken not once but multiple times by myself --- Blow Me... err Bite Me...
((yes i jest, i am not seriously going to be upset by this jab, it is however a noted phrase from my IC, when similar has been said. Pie of course being the other IC thing, it *is* what she is known to want to do))

no mind bender here as there could not be much further from the truth. Although hiding in the open has been brought up, a chaotic spy in the court of Lord British? Still feels, so wrong to be granted a place in his court, yet feels so right, how better to serve my Liege then under the nose of those we wish to show the truth to..... This is also why i had asked Lord DarkStarr about the chaotic followers at one point in the past, was not meant for myself but for my fellow devotees. However, history shows that even Lord Blackthorn called Lord British friend. Would you then say with this, Lord Blackthorn was a secret devotee of order? i think not!

1. who need place bounds - you do not think of where a line 'may' be drawn there fore there is no judgement where it is or what may or may not be crossed (hence why FireLotus said - except on the forums! might i add it would be handy in IRC also )
2. - the removal of bounds is not a judgement it is just not thought of, how can you pass judgement on something that does not even get a passing thought? just do or do not there is no thought required so there is no judgement to be made.
3. cause? again what cause? i live my life , things happen or they do not happen. as the saying goes 'roll with it', c'est la vie. what ever will be will be.
4. How can one live without judgement - I mention from earlier - you can live without judgement if you do not even give it half a thought, let the roll of the dice create what is.

And here I shall rest my case-- here my blind wearing friend who sees in one direction and forgets the other 270 degrees around you (ooc appended: this is not intentionally meant to be insulting, text on screen can be read wrong. just in case) - . Note in my first post i indeed did *not* make a choice. In fact i did exactly this... nothing.. i sat and watched the sky finding humour in the fact i did not choose to do anything and i did not choose to do nothing. where i had so many chances to do *something* i just did nothing. You in your own views pointed what i am.

as i also stated, as my personal view chaos is the ability to not do what is expected while at the same time what is expected. It is a paradox, do not choose, just do. ((thank you Secret Master of Chaos, Yoda ~grins~ - there is no try, only do)

 

Just as food for thought, "perfect order" sounds like the Euthyphro dilemma.

But really, 'omni-' anything seems inherently problematic, especially (in the case of monotheism) when every 'omni' is rolled into a single living being.

*picks his nose*

Oh, my... I'm siding with the chaotes again!! NOOOO!!

Quick!! Get me, ahh...

some holy water!
some morally righteous Clear Channel programmimg!
a tinfoil cap, a spatula and a leatherbound Bible in a vacuum-sealed bag!

WE ARE SAVED!!

Sent from my EVA Unit-01 using Tapatalk

 

Right - fanatical follower of DarkStarr ~eyes Korvash and grins stupidly~ which is why *He* is the first one i just blurted out unthinkingly "Blow Me DarkStarr - err Bite Me" and hence marked my constantly saying it? Because i am so fanatical
and do not worry, the spoon decides i do not who its target is, if it smacks you upside the head or leaves you with a smidget of a headache that be its call. However as for me spooning you ~sticks tongue out~ You -may- enjoy that to much but we shall see where the dice roll there.

It is true that I would stand before my Liege and lay down my life, but it is also true that I would stand against him and argue that something he sees could be seen it other ways and stand to argue with him

1. He does not have a taste for Lord British pie upon his pallet - i do! (he thinks its taking things a bit far - i am just hungry and Lord British looks tasty!)
2. He believed a size of a crown was acceptable - i pointed out that the boundary set should be removed --- ((showed smaller ones worn by ladies of court -- and won by "cuteness, even if nothing comes of it))
3. I mention that all sides need an army to defend themselves - which in and of itself is 'orderly' but it certainly is not Order. He at the time did not agree with me.

I stand to serve my Liege onto my death if it is how the spoon directs, but yet I also stand opposed to even my liege when a line is drawn where there should not ever be a line.. or a view is made where another 270 degrees could be looked at.

Also last point i shall make here -- "I will stab him in the back if i do not like how he bites his nails" --- i can put you in ONE spot where you have openly admitted you would stand to protect a certain being where you would let others fall or kill off yourself. ~winks~ which in and of itself leads me to my last point..

The **BIGGEST** form of chaos i have found to date -- passes through all species, human and animal alike and does not "choose" it just happens like the roll of the dice. ... *LOVE!*

Love is chaos - in its purest and simplest form!

 

Here, Amber has helped to add evidence to my view (in my eyes.) My interpretation of her actions, differ from her own. Which, in itself, shows you are not able to simply say 'This is chaos, this is not.' Amber and myself are both followers of chaos, but for entirely different reasons.


And yes Amber, 99% of the time, my character would kill someone over a simple annoyance. But somehow, some high priestess managed to get inside his head, I think it was with a spoon, to a point he would give his life to defend her. One of the other aspects of chaos, its unpredictability.

 

Chaos

Order

"I am very uncomfortable accepting Order and Chaos as just "Swag" to be assumed by the player themselves"
There are those that are Dom, and those that are not Dom...
~Time Lord~