Some fundamental changes regarding PvP

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Hemswal The Descended, Aug 24, 2019.

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  1. Hemswal The Descended

    Hemswal The Descended Avatar

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    TLDR; Unless you care about PvP, just stop here. This is fairly useless information for non-PvPers. However, if you like the idea of PvP and related things, read on! Also, please keep in mind, this is a WISHLIST request. It's not really intended to be a post for open debate.

    Hey folks!

    First, let me start by saying, I very rarely participate in PvP but I am friends with a large portion of the PvP part of our community. I listen to their complaints regularly. The complaints almost always have to do with balance or with core aspects of the game that have a significant impact on PvP with willing participants.

    Side note; I used to PvP regularly. I stopped because it's a conflict of interest for me since I run the Seasonal PvP with @Kardall

    I never want to be accused of helping someone win or lose based on my participation. So, I just keep it very limited and if I even make it into the top 10 from collecting skulls from friends, I delete myself from the database. I keep my stats on to track my PvE endeavors but I digress...


    I want to talk about a few things:

    1. POTs and the ability to ban people from them.

    I'd like to see the ability to ban someone from a POT removed entirely and changed into something more meaningful. Someone not being able to enter a town for any reason at all is severely lacking in immersion.

    Instead of POT owners having the ability to ban someone from entering, ban them from entering normally.

    If someone is "banned" make it so they have to zone into a guarded area in order to get in, so that they have to literally fight their way into the town. This is immersive and a suitable punishment for any evil doer! Also, it could be done easily by piggy backing off of the existing modular dungeon system! How cool would it be if we could create guarded entry areas for our towns that range in difficulty based on the level of the totem. Hell! You could make it a maze too. It would be limited by the POT owner's imagination.

    I realize there are people that would fight against this idea tooth and nail. However, I'm of the opinion that if someone has done something bad enough to be banned from anything, they are probably worthy of being banned from the game for a week/month/permanently. Otherwise, it's just a personal issues between the banner and banned that should hold no permanent or serious bearing on the gameplay of the game. And, let's face it, being banned from POT's is actually pretty horrible in some cases. I've never been banned from a town but I know a few people who have. In fact, some of them have quit the game over it.

    2. Guild wars and the ability to abuse unflagging during a war.

    If you are at war with another guild, which is an OPT IN thing to do. Both sides have to agree to the war before it can be waged. Then, you are suppose to be semi-permanently flagged vs the opposing guild. This is something that is easily circumvented. Someone from either guild can just join a non-flagged party with someone that is in another guild or guildless and POOF their flag for the guild war is gone. Honestly, this seems like a bug to me, but in case it's a feature, I'd like it to be changed because this very act goes against the spirit of a guild war.


    3. Pick pockets.

    I've played a pick pocket. It was a lot of fun. I abandoned it long ago when the big changes took place but I have a few friends that still do it and we have chatted about the mechanics quite a bit.

    There is a long list of issues with this particular part of the game play. Aside from people generally not liking pick pockets, there are actual game mechanics issues with this that need to be addressed.

    1. A pick pocket is generally useless in a zone where fighting is taking place. If there is an AOE (Ring of Fire, Meteor Shower, EQ, Elysian Illumination, or even Immolation, which is technically a magical shield) (the same goes for cone attacks vs stealthed people) it's is 100% impossible to pick pocket someone in the AOE or near their immolation. No amount of magic resist can prevent someone in stealth from being revealed. This makes pick pocketing in PvP zones with mobs nearly impossible. Let me be clear about this. It's not just a healthy challenge, it's damn near impossible. Sure, it's smart for would-be targets to uses these precautions but it's very one sided and should be addressed.

    2. A pick pocket cannot pick pocket NPCs. Well, this is one of the most horrible parts of being a pick pocket. There are actually a lot of people that want to play a rogue but don't want to steal from other players. The inability to steal from NPCs completely negates these types of players from even existing. It is simply not possible to play a rogue that steals from NPCs and not players. Let's fix that. It would be extremely fun if done right. If this was possible, I'd still have the pick pocket skill trained above 1.

    3. Revisiting the whole being banned from a POT thing up above... There are only a few POTs where people ever regularly flag. Let's say someone makes a pick pocket and gets caught in all of those towns. Let's say the town owner decides that person should be banned from entry. OK, great, now the pick pocket cannot play their character at all.

    4. General PvP and PvP in POTs

    If you get banned from a POT for PvPing flagged people, then you can no longer PvP with them or anyone else that flags in that town. This has happened so many times. This is just a broken idea that needs fixing. See above" 1. POTs and the ability to ban people from them. ". You can't even wait for them outside the POT and fight them when they come out because that's not an available function on the overworld map.

    Also, following someone flagged to their destination and hoping to get into a fight with them inside the new place doesn't work out too well either. For 2 reasons:
    1. You cannot load into a zone stealthed. (this should be changed)
    2. Most people don't bother running to zones while flagged (or at all). They just teleport everywhere, myself included.

    The argument could be made that PvP should just be happening in PvP zones! Ok, sure, but wouldn't more than say, 30 or 40 people need to be using these zones on a regular basis? Ohh, and don't forget, the game play for a pick pocket basically doesn't exist in normal PvP zones for reasons listed above.

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    I realize this sounds like a rant. It's really not intended that way. I just want meaningful systems and meaningful PvP. These notes could help push things in the right direction. Thanks for reading.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  2. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Hemswal I agree with your fundamental assessments particularly re: abusing flag/unflag mechanics to trivialize PvP - this has always been one of my biggest bugbears with Pvp in Sota is that in my experience it has always been one sided, ie one party hassling another party who isn't interested or who is trying to do something else that requires being in a PvP scene and then, when you go to retliate, they can just cuddle up to the oracle. There's literally no consequence. Always had kudos/respect for people who practice what they preach, they are a PvPer, they are always flagged, and not just flagged when they want to go on the prowl and then play it safe the rest of the time. Particularly in the context of an (opted-in) guild war it does not make sense to be able to duck in and out at will when you have the numbers or when the mood suits you and then hide behind protection the rest of the time. If you decide to engage in a war that should be a meaningful choice.

    The pickpocket being "only" useful against other players never really made sense to me. I'm sure there's economic considerations, but I've seen other games work this in to have a loot table of pickpocketable/sellable stolen goods and associated risk/penalties for being caught. We have the risk/penalties for being caught stealing deco off a shelf, so why not out of pockets? Its a system that could be really fleshed out and even be the provenance for unique recipes and such. Tie it to a whole contraband/black market/moving stolen goods flagging you thing.

    I have to disagree regarding the POTs though. If I spent a bunch of money on a town, having the right to keep certain undesirables out of my town is an absolute necessity. Not just in the context of PvP, but just troublemakers/undesirables in general. Perhaps if PvP is the only reason why we'd want this functionality, link the ability to ban to the PvP status - ie, if you set your town to open PvP, you can't keep anyone out, but if your town is NOT set to open PvP, you retain the option to do so, if only to avoid the naked-streaker-spammer types Its not only this, but ban/unban is a useful feature if you've got someone standing AFK somewhere you're trying to put a marker to just get them to move. A lot of people choose to play this game in smaller/semiprivate communities, and now that towns are forced multiplayer mode you don't even have the option to play in peace by mode changing. Removing the ability to ban would give you no recourse whatsoever. The alternative you mention fighting one's way into a town) has potential but I'd still expect town owners would want some way to police what goes on. I've never actually used the ban feature other than to move people who were standing in the way preventing me from placing something (usually afk) or to boot someone who was afkbotting in a fountain in the town square. I don't think its a feature that needs to be used often, but removing it completely with no alternative (not even private mode, anymore) seems too extreme.
     
  3. CatherineRose

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    When I first started playing this game I was horrified and against the mere thought of killing another avatar for I saw them as a person who wanted to murder. Since five years have gone by now and time has given me the chance to try to understand the way of game play I have learned that even if one does not like to do something if one learns the object of the action, learns the motivation for the action there will often come a little light creeping into ones minds. Then the realization that even if I never want to participate I began to see with understanding eyes and hear with inside ears. The judgement against PVP falls away as I realize there now is just another step of growth instead of a judgement.

    My adventure level was high the first time I entered a PVP tournament which meant I was willingly going to slaughter... which I was. I couldn't even jump through the hole in the wall to get out of the area and someone else was gracious enough to jump down and help me get out. At first my eyes filled with tears and my feelings were hurt for I felt like a fool. However, continuing to try to PVP caused me to want to understand why anyone loves to die or kill a mate. Guess what......we all are playing a game, we all are playing a role and the best fun we can ever have is to learn how to help another player enjoy the game the way they want to play. Giving to a new player help and information is more than words can describe for the joy comes back many more times.
    We will never be happy in real live or in the game when we close our minds and refuse to help our neighbor succeed in their enjoyment.

    I have come a long way in understanding PVP and one thing that needs to be changed is there should be punishment and consequences for a crime. If a person wants to be a thief then there should be a consequence that causes that action to be thought about before the action is done again. Some of the crimes should have a clear understanding as to where the line can not be crossed or a permanent punishment will be imposed....just like there is in real life.

    I have enjoyed the times of PVP when there is a story to be told or a reason to PVP. Black Sails Pirate stories that Boris Mondragon began years ago is the perfect way for me to PVP. However, my thoughts are only my opinions . There is way more depth to PVP than I know and it is my desire to make PVP just as enjoyable for anyone who wishes to do so to freely learn with out someone complaining that their game play is not like someone else's gameplay.

    Make PVP meaningful with clear guidelines. Make changes just as@Hemswal spoke of above. Have a group of various levels of PVP players and include some who are against PVP to give the reasons they do not participate so that those objections will be addressed as these changes are suggested . Make the list of Pros and cons for any change suggested. Follow through with suggestions as to how these changes can be implemented. Once the list has been developed then present it to the developers and be willing to do the work yourself.
     
  4. Lord Aventine

    Lord Aventine Avatar

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    I think a 'Highlander' approach to the PVP ladder system would be more interesting than a number of kills feature. In a Highlander approach, being flagged as PVP would give each person a median power buff when combatting other players. And 'not' getting killed would be the goal. In return for slaying others, the victorius (and non-dying) player gains a little power buff from his adversary. The loser gives up some of his power buff. Over time, the undying Highland has the greatest buff, while everyone else seeks that person out because they know if they slay that person they get a big boost in power, compared to slaying someone else that has had many more deaths. Rough idea. But something like this that involved something a little more than just head count would make it far more interesting.
     
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  5. Hemswal The Descended

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    I'm on board with giving Pick Pocketing from NPCs some depth, for sure! I am not a fan of the current "stealing" from npc towns system that is in place. You take something that's red (private property) and then the Justicar appears, even if you're in stealth, and fines you X amount of gold. Hell, this even happens in Blood Bay, a PvP town. The Justicar just sucks.

    Keeping out undesirables

    What determines if a player is an "undesirable" or a "troublemaker"?

    Someone standing AFK somewhere you're trying to put a marker to just get them to move.

    How about a /kick (player name) command to just port them to the town entrance instead of relying on banning? Also, if this functionality was added, a cool down would be appropriate to prevent abuse.

    A lot of people choose to play this game in smaller/semiprivate communities.

    I'd prefer a whitelist for these folks instead of a black list for a handful of people they consider "undesirables"


    I get your perspective and many others perspectives on the matter of banning people from towns and I've banned people from towns (more than once). I just think there is a better way. A more immersive way.
     
  6. Bedawyn

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    We live in a world where every avatar arrives with magic powers and we're told that moontowers have the ability to aetherically judge someone's intentions and keep out undesirables. What's non-immersive about POT governors having the ability to set magic wards that keep out people they don't want in their town? And why should they be forced to assume the worst of everybody instead of waiting and judging people based on their own behavior? Especially since immersion-breaking behavior is one reason for banning people.

    I would love to have my own POT one day, but if I ever do, the first thing I would want to establish is that it's a safe space for Aspies and others on the autistic spectrum or with social anxiety or sensory overstimulation issues. I have as much right to want that as someone else does to PVP, but I can't do that without the ability to protect my people from those who would use the game medium to cause us real-life problems. And if I've put the money and dedication into achieving it, why should someone else's desire to harass us trump my desires, in a product that I've paid for and they haven't? (Because ultimately a POT is a product, just like anything from the Crown Store.)
     
  7. Hemswal The Descended

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    Moon towers need not be placed for the ability to ban players. Actually, I'm not sure they do anything at all.
     
  8. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Brigade – Bug Hunter

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    that's the lore, though.

     
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  9. Andartianna

    Andartianna Avatar

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    1. I totally disagree banning undesirables is a function I wish to keep. I don't use it often but POTs are a Governors area of control.
    2. I think that is more of a bug that should be looked at but for sure unflagging against a guild you are at war with defeats the purpose of war.
    3. Pick pocket should be removed from pvp entrely. There is no valid reason to allow it. It should be a pve skill against monsters and npcs in towns.
    4. Stealth should last through a load screen that makes a lot of sense
     
  10. Hemswal The Descended

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    @Andartianna I partially disagree with 3. Picking Pockets should absolutely be a part of PvP.

    But hey, I didn't really want this to be a post for debate. It's a wishlist post. So, I'll drop it there.

    I do still want to know what an "undesirable" is classified as though. Especially since you and @kaeshiva have both used that term now.
     
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  11. Asbury Baker

    Asbury Baker Bug Brigade – Bug Hunter

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    It's an interesting wishlist, but, if there is significant disagreement, and it seems there is at least some, hopefully some public discourse is valid to prevent the wishlist from being assumed to be the will of the people. Since you said you wanted to talk about these topics, hopefully there is room for others to talk as well.

    A POT governor's abilities to ban individuals from their little fiefdoms has obviously valid uses. If someone is trying to ruin a RP event, be a general nuisance, or spew offensive language in the zone chat, removing the POT governor's ban twig is only in the best interest of the miscreant. If someone gets banned, there are hundreds of other towns. And finally, if that paid-for privilege is taken away, the POT owners will probably revolt, for whatever that is worth, and regardless of the use, or lack thereof, of the option. I would be interested in hearing about banning due to PvPing in POTs. Was the governor and/or their guild getting repeatedly beat down (and looted) by better players? Was the activity driving off players, like two players' used high-gear, low-level alts to serial-loot and run off most low-level PvPers from Blood Bay? Were the towns PvP POTs? If not, were the victims too lazy to go to another town to unflag?

    Regarding pickpocketing, whoever is talking to you about it - do they want a decent chance of pickpocketing a player who has countermeasures deployed, and/or in the middle of a raging combat scene? Do they want a mechanic which is configured so that, in the long run, crime pays and the consequences are minimal?
     
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  12. Mac2

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    Some bans to pvp pots have been from the person going afk in there house and getting killed. In this situation I would not blame the other player, but blame myself so I would learn the lesson I obviously need to learn, DONT GO AFK FLAGGED.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  13. Hemswal The Descended

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    @Asbury Baker Sure, I'll bite.

    I don't assume a wishlist made from me, an individual, to automatically be the will of the people. No one else should either. Anyone is welcome to make their own wishlist posts any time they like.

    I don't like the idea of permanent bans. I'm not going to change my mind about it. I have banned people from towns, and I did it for reasons that most people would. That doesn't mean I like the mechanic. I did offer alternatives. There are many more alternatives that are possible than I've listed.

    As for the mechanics revolving around pick pocketing, I'd like to see it be a reasonable course of action for anyone that wants to participate in the activity, as it is a part of the game.

    I'd also like to see penalties for criminals, like the guards attacking, or jail time (and having to either break out of jail or stay for the full sentence), and bounty boards.


    I propose balance. Nothing has lasting fun that's one sided.

    Both of these posts lean toward something meaningful and balanced.

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/pvp-scaling-danger-zones.153424/

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/meaningful-pvp.154787/


    A criminal element that has checks and balances would be a boon to the game. It would be fun for the criminals and the law abiding players. Instead of snuffing it out, it should be embraced and developed.
     
  14. Bedawyn

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    Absolutely! This is always the problem I run into when someone says they don't want debate about their wishlist. They absolutely have the right to their own wish requests, and I'm not invested in trying to change someone's mind. BUT the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if only one side of an "argument" is piping up, then of course the devs (and likely other players who don't care one way or the other) will assume that the only opinion they're hearing is the majority opinion. (Plus, if the devs actually are reading, it's a lot easier for them to keep track of multiple community opinions on one stream than scattered about a dozen different threads on the same topic).

    Absolutely with you there. IC criminal behavior should have corresponding IC consequences (including POT owners having the ability to place guards with adjustable criteria for what is considered legal in their town).
     
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  15. Night1Candi

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    What if POT governors could do both: either tell the guards to be extra watchful for X/Y/Z guilds/people _OR_ OOC ban like they currently can, too? Then, you have an IC/immersive option (rather than just code alone which would still be there for kicking out the nonimmersive jerks). For the first option, the town crier could start yelling intruder alerts to the inner townfolk (if the enemy guild is not sneaky enough to swiftly dispatch the guard detail before they make noise). And yes, zoning stealth should be a real deal (and I was really annoyed the first time I found out it did not work right, myself). IMO, I believe magical shields /should/ protect people from pick pockets to some degree (in an opposed test of your picking skill vs their shield skill), and picking up carriage fare (and much more, hopefully so) from NPC folks would be really awesome, too!
     
  16. Hemswal The Descended

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    @Night1Candi I def like some of those ideas. I also like the idea of an opposed check for pick pocket but there is a system in place for pick pockets to succeed or fail already.
     
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