Meaningful PVP

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Antrax Artek, May 1, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    I have often heard people ask what a meaningful PVP would be, well, I'll try to explain how a meaning pvp system could be.

    Example of meaningful PVP:

    -Opportunity to be able to join a Faction and be selectively PVP Flagged in all scenes against members of opposite faction
    • Players should get faction points/currency while they do activities playing in multiplayer: Killing monsters, fishing, gathering and capturing zones.
    • Factions ranking system.
    • Factions dedicated daily quests: like keep the control of that zone for a certain amount of time or kill x amount of players of the opposite factions.
    • Factions rewards: Special PVP crafting materials, PVP resources, PVP artifacts and gold.
    -PVP queue system for 1v1, 2v2, 5v5 and Obsidian Trials
    • Capped adventuring level and skills
    • Leaderboard and ranking system
    • Arena/OT rewards: PVP consumables, PVP cosmetic items, Reagents bags and gold.
    • Arena dedicated daily quests: like win 10 Obsidian Trials, defeat 10 different opponents in obsidian trials or win 10 2v2 arenas.
    -Polished dueling system
    • No ransoms in duel.
    • Duel ranking system.
    • Give players the chance to place a bet on duels.
    -Guild vs Guild Warfare and Alliance
    • Players can declare war or establish alliances with other guilds.
    • When two guilds are in war they'll be PVP flagged just with the enemy guild (selectively flagging)
    • Allies can request to join the war
    • Before declaring a guild war both guild must fill boxes with resources (example:1000 silver, 1000 gold, 1000 pine, 1000 maple, 100k igg), this will be the final prize for the winning guild.
    • Guild wars ranking system and leaderboard.
    -Open World PVP
    • Safe Zones: Only consensual PVP (Mid rewards)
    • Dangerous Zones: Open PVP without ransoms (Mid high rewards)
    • Lawless Zones: Open PVP with ransoms (High rewards, pvp specific materials, components and artifacts)
    • Better rewards should not be unique pve/deco items desirable by non-pvpers like happens with dragons heads but just a better igg/resources rate.
    • As suggested: Multiplayer/PVP version of mines.
    -Justice, reputation system and roleplay
    • NPC Towns reputation
    • Criminals, Neutrals and Guards players
    • NPC Guards
    • Criminal NPC Towns

    -KO before Death
    • Players in duels, Safe and Dangerous zones are knocked out instead of being killed, then the winner can choose to kill them or let them get up after the timer, even the kick animation used to break barrels/crates can be used as coup de grace.
    • KO state: The target is stunned, cannot move, cast or be healed for x amount of seconds.

    -PVP-PVE challenges
    • Queue system for joining a random scene limited to a x amount of players (they'll be pvp flagged) with no respawn of mobs and players, if someone dies is sent away from the instance, when all mobs are killed the instance closes.
    • Challenges dedicated daily quests: like complete 10 challenges, defeat 10 players in a challenge instance.

    -Castle Sieges
    • These can be integrated with the Factions system.
    • Players fight over a map to keep the control of the castle, the faction holding the castle get a XP/Resources/loots % bonus in all scenes until the opposite faction takes the castle.
    • Add there mobs spawns that help the attacking faction to take control of the castle, this can help non-pvpers or entry level pvpers to help to fight against the siege.
    • Add destructible and repairable walls/gates/doors, this can help non-pvpers or entry level pvpers to help to fight against the siege.
    • Make these zones no ransoms.
    -Boss random spawns in PVP zones (Similar to UO Champ spawns)

    • Create collaboration between pvpers and pvers to fight hordes of monsters and the final boss.
    • PVPers they will take care of defending against players' attacks.
    • PVErs they will take care of defending against monster attacks and defeating the boss.
    • Rewards: High igg loots and random rares.

    Obviously we are all aware that having all this at the moment requires a lot of work and time, but I hope it can be a good starting point, also cause many points can be applied also to PVE (for example daily pve hunting quests).

    Anyone who has other ideas and suggestions is asked to add them, having different opinions and compare them is awesome.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  2. Hillt

    Hillt Avatar

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Awesome explanation! This certainly opened my eyes to a few things I hadn’t thought about. I’m into pvp in other games, not so much here, but if half the stuff you listed was in this game I would definitely partake.

    They should really reach out to you to help better the pvp experience in this game. Keep up the fight good man!!
     
  3. Vero

    Vero Avatar

    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    554
    Trophy Points:
    28
    If we can get that list on the Release Schedule and implemented we could die satisfied :p
    Nice post @Antrax Artek !!
     
  4. Brass Knuckles

    Brass Knuckles Avatar

    Messages:
    3,928
    Likes Received:
    7,659
    Trophy Points:
    153
    @Antrax Artek

    Nice post, the things most important to me are:

    Faction system like we had in UO were you are orange to a opposing faction no matter where you are and no matter if ur pvp or pve toggled. I’d also like to see real meaning to factions like a faction who takes a npc town gets guards to help hold it and real benifit to taking the town maybe even something simple like opposing factions can no longer tp to it. Laying traps was a blast in UO as well in addition to the sheriff system.

    I’d like real battle grounds like arathi basin or warsong Gulch. Chris said castle sieges would be like artathi I’m just hoping he actually knows what arathi is. It seams large scale battles cause performance issues 5x5 or 10x10 bgs might be a perfect solution.

    Maybe instead of duals, a arena mechanic with rankings. 1x1 , 2x2 etc. might be hard to do with out no real pop problem though.

    I’ve always thought they should tie crafting into bloodbay, items crafted in BB gets unique roll options. Bloodbay needs help and should be tied into the faction system.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  5. Helvig Ingvildsdottir

    Helvig Ingvildsdottir Avatar

    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    2,233
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Helboer in Kahli
    I absolutely love all these ideas! They are great, well thought-out, and should satisfy many different needs.

    As a RPer, I especially like this:
    and this:
    My even more hardcore fellow RPers often frown at my character for actively seeking fights, because the need for self-preservation should make a person try to avoid getting killed. And I agree. I don't like the death/ressurrection system anyways, not very immersive IMO, but this suggestion would definitely help!


    About guild wars: Yes I think exactly what Antrax described is needed! In addition, as a gold plating, I could imagine being able to select from a list of end conditions for the war. This could be simple numbers like "achieve X kill points", or things like "the war ends when player John Doe is killed by an enemy guild member" or "the war ends when all / n% of the members of one guild are dead at the same time" or "the war ends when a certain placeable deco item, that is spawned upon selecting this option, is double clicked by a member of an enemy guild" (You'd have to be in a guild house in order for this to work, so the item, say a special looking statue or such, appears right there as temporary deco until the war is over. This could enable private castle defense scenarios or RP quests where an object must be found. Should be spawnable in a house, basement, or dungeon that is on a lot that is "guild property").
     
  6. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    1,689
    Likes Received:
    2,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I do not PVP much only duel currently but I like a lot of what you ahve here Antrax
     
  7. Lazarus Long

    Lazarus Long Avatar

    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    2,286
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New Britannia
    Full Loot


    The End.


    Laz
     
  8. Mugly Wumple

    Mugly Wumple Avatar

    Messages:
    1,266
    Likes Received:
    2,417
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Space Coast
    I'm not a PvPer but I'd go for anything that allows me to join as cannon fodder. I enjoy the planning, the strategies and the chaos of a large battle.
    Looting hurts though since I never win.
     
  9. oplek

    oplek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So Eve. Most of the list is good, except things like the open-world PVP. At that point, I'd effectively be forced to quit. Fundamental aspects of the SOTA gameplay will have been replaced. I bought my way into a selective-multiplayer game where the majority of the content was not behind PVP wall. That's specifically what I paid for. Just like I paid my way into the open-world full(half)-loot Eve Online... but I'd fight against anyone (and there have been some) to make Eve consensual PVP.

    If I went to the store and bought a gallon of OJ, and by the time I got home it had suddenly transformed into beer, because someone arrogantly thought that I was factually incorrect in wanting to buy OJ instead of beer, I would be rightly pissed.
     
  10. Boris Mondragon

    Boris Mondragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    3,955
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Docking at your port soon
    Great ideas @Antrax Artek , only concern or recommendation is on the Guild Wars part. An option for a guild to declare combatants/non-combatants would keep the “civilians” from being easy prey and give the guild leader more combat options. Great work and effort to make PVP special here In SOTA. R/Boris
     
    CatherineRose and parallelogram like this.
  11. Helvig Ingvildsdottir

    Helvig Ingvildsdottir Avatar

    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    2,233
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Helboer in Kahli
    I wouldn't like that. It's not immersive/realistic at all to say "these people are members of our group which is your enemy but you cannot attack them". If you're with a gang of criminals, even if you're only the one who washes their clothes and cooks their meals, you're going to be attacked when their camp is raided.

    Also, the option to hand-pick guildmates that join the war and those that don't means more implementation effort. And will need a solution to prevent non-warring guildmates from healing their warring guildmates during guild war interactions.

    (edited because solutions like RoE are not a part of this discussion, so I removed that)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
    parallelogram likes this.
  12. Crendel

    Crendel Avatar

    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Spot on!!!! If only this was a core document/manifesto when SoTA was in development and was the intended direction
     
  13. Parson Barr

    Parson Barr Avatar

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Some of these ideas could be implemented quickly, like the betting system and leader boards. Others need cash and time. I wonder if a PVP stretch goal makes sense.
     
  14. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

    Messages:
    9,958
    Likes Received:
    24,207
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    Hi @Antrax Artek . Thank you for putting into words so much that needed to be said about PvP for this game. As a casual, not very often pvper I would like to vote for ransom to be removed. It is the basis for me never pvp'ing since I am such a multi-tasker and always carrying things I don't want to lose. I think for someone succeeding in the kill there should be a reward just not ransom.

    I know players yell for full loot but wait you can lose houses, lot deeds, and more. No way am I gonna do it. I've had a village lot deed in my inventory for weeks because I putter a lot and need to check if the town has been upgraded yet or I need to see if something will fit someplace. Now sure I could throw all those valuables in the bank but what's the fun of that? If I had a sudden opportunity to do a timed event to capture the flag like in Wintergrasp in WOW I would by no means be wanting to have to move mountains before I could participate.

    Well we don't have that but really timed events are very exciting since the teams involved are on a time limit and need to strategize with team-mates to win.

    What if you got trophies, achievements, titles, and gold from kills? Why does it have to be our stuff? One time I did get killed when not prepared but I had so much in my pack and most of it was sheet music. So I guess you could say I was killed for a song. ;) I don't think we are like other games. I know some don't do everything in the game but I do or would at least do some pvp if we had things like I mentioned above. Incentive is needed.

    Again thank you for such a complete list. The battle for pvp has gone on and on. I think the answer is more than that. This game as with all things must have a variety of things not just one type of pvp but a pvp based on challenging fun, rewards, titles (that give bonuses so we have to chose), quests, achievements, raid system needs implemented, and lots of reasons to do it as mentioned by the op and this thread. @Chris @DarkStarr for wonderful ideas. Please read this thread.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  15. Boris Mondragon

    Boris Mondragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    3,955
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Docking at your port soon
    Have it your way and watch how few PVE guild become part of this Guild battle idea. Lack of flexibility leads to deadlock for what it’s worth.
     
  16. golruul

    golruul Avatar

    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    660
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Excellent post for the most part.

    However, I disagree with two areas:

    The "Open world PvP" section is back to pushing PvE incentives for PvP. I completely disagree with these kinds of incentives and regard it as bad game design. If the rest of the post was implemented, there would be no need for these incentives because PvP would become more inherently fulfilling and fun. Incentives only exist because PvP sucks right now -- it's an attempt to put a bandage on a symptom rather than addressing the root cause. If incentives are going to be done, then make PvP only stuff (i.e. resource nodes that give PvP bonuses) as the actual incentive. Or make the current resource nodes in PvP areas drop an additional something that can be crafted to give PvP bonuses.

    "Boss random spawns in PvP zones" is just another "need to attract more sheep to the slaughter" type of "incentive", which is garbage. The only reason PvE players would come there is because of boss loot. They don't care about PvP and don't want to PvP, so stop trying to force them into PvP. Stop trying to put in game mechanics whose only point is to attract sheep to the slaughter. Seriously.

    The rest of the post is full of great ideas.
     
    Xandra7, FrostII, Gravidy and 2 others like this.
  17. Dhanas

    Dhanas Avatar

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I disagree, PVPers do PVE too, and what a PVPer wants to do is doing PVE in a PVP zone, where there is risk, so this kind of content should attract PVPers that want to do PVE and no pure PVEr, since in the game there are lot of high reward zones PVE only, Upper Tear is one of those.
     
    Jikininki, Gravidy and Antrax Artek like this.
  18. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    @Lazarus Long @majoria70
    -I didn't mention anything about full loot, on the contrary has been spoken about removing ransoms from certain zones, duels and castle sieges.

    @oplek
    -Why should you be forced to quit? I didn't say anything about forced pvp or selective multiplayer removal in the openworld part.

    @golruul
    -I didn't say exclusive bosses or exclusive loots, who doesn't want to have nothing to do with PVP can already clear Boss contents in PVE zones.
    Also pvpers need to pve at least as much as the pvers to have a good pool exp and good gear, so PVP needs PVE contents inside or PVPers will be forced to stay out of PVP zones when they need to get xp and materials (This is the true actual problem, pvpers don't stay in pvp zones cause they're worthless compared to Safe zones).
    The current system pull pvpers to safe zones and private mode, slaughters are locked into the sheeps fence.
    I really cannot see what point of the Openworld and Champ spawn part will force someone who doesn't want to PVP.
    This is not a way to attract not pvpers to pvp zones, but instead is a way to attract pvpers to the same spot, this will create fights between pvpers. Pvers can do already the same contents in Safe zones.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  19. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

    Messages:
    4,550
    Likes Received:
    8,124
    Trophy Points:
    153
    This could be a way to apply negative virtues to pvp. Have to give the victor a really short time of only a few seconds to decide to kill or not to avoid griefing, and the knockout to Require some method of reviving in addition to whatever knockout timer there is to ensure its not actually worse than death
     
  20. golruul

    golruul Avatar

    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    660
    Trophy Points:
    43
    @Dhanas and @Antrax Artek
    To be clear, I'm not saying there should be 0 gold dropped from mobs and 0 silver/gold nodes in PvP zones. I'm saying you shouldn't get more just because you're in a PvP zone and/or flagged. I have no problem if the devs create a clone of Elysium Mines and make it a PvP multiplayer zone with more Satyrs. That's fine with me. I have a problem if each Satyr is suddenly giving 2x the amount of gold/goodies just because it's in a PvP zone.

    Also, just to be clear where I stand, there's absolutely no way anyone can convince me that giving more PvE incentives to encourage PvP is a good idea. This is bad game design, plain and simple. The real problem is that incentives don't address any of the root causes of why PvP isn't fun. Even if the incentive was completely retarded, like +1000% xp instead of current 10%, it still doesn't make PvP any more fun or engaging. Giving you 10x the gold per mob kill and 10x the ore from resource nodes doesn't make PvP any more fun or engaging. These kinds of incentives are stupid and do nothing to address the problem. If they want more PvP, they need to make PvP more fun and engaging.

    Most of your original post tries to address these root causes to make PvP more fun and engaging. This is why I'm all for it (minus the 2 things I brought up).

    Regarding champ/openworld spawn, I must have misread your intent. I thought you wanted to get PvE folk into a PvP zone to kill off the boss/mobs while other PvPers protect the (formerly PvE) group against other PvPers. If this isn't what you intended, ignore my comments on this.