SOTA v2

Discussion in 'Fire Lotus Tavern' started by Seggallion, Mar 23, 2023.

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  1. Seggallion

    Seggallion Avatar

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    Come along with me as I drop off the deep end. There is no way this goes any where.

    As a software engineer (WMS) I know that as you get further along in development, your ability to change things shrinks. Even if you plan for flexibility and try to keep things as independent as possible, you will still find yourself tied to the limitations of system. Systems are built on top of other systems, such that you can't change a small part without changing many other things. There is a point in any project where it is easier and better to just start over, than it would be to implement it in the existing framwork.

    Catnip has mentioned a time or two that porting to Unreal Engine is cost prohibitive. This indicates to me that Catnip would like to move to Unreal Engine. There are number of issues that Catnip would love to address or features that they would love to implement, but it just isn't feasible in the current design. I get a feeling from a lot of the people involved, that some things would be done differently today.

    Catnip could essentially start on version 2 of SOTA, in Unreal Engine. Take the largest zone size in SOTA and make that the game world in SOTA 2, for now. I think the player base could fit into one zone comfortably. Within that one zone, have one town with housing lots. Have one wilderness area for adventuring and resource gathering. One dungeon with a boss. Have one house type, one boss type, on enemy type, etc. That way you don't have to worry about updating hundreds of things when you make one change.

    Take the Star Citizen approach of using this zone to work on all the systems. Take as much time as they want to work on skills, crafting, PvP, artifacts, and any other system they want to implement. Catnip would be able to implement new systems easily. Only work on additional content once the systems are satisfactory to Catnip's standard.

    The craziest part yet is that I have a good feeling that if Catnip was open about the struggles and desire to make changes, that I do feel they would be successful with a crowdfunding campaign. You would have your typical trolls but I get a sense from a lot of players that there is still enough goodwill to help Catnip get to the next level. I mean, I don't see millions but 100's of thousands is doable. I would have no qualms about contributing.
     
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  2. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    If starting a new project then I would personally choose Godot 4. Don't underestimate the value of open source and the ability to fix bugs in-house.
     
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  3. Seggallion

    Seggallion Avatar

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    I read up on Godot a few weeks back. While it is promising, I am not sure it gives the same triple-A experience that Unreal Engine would.
     
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  4. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

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    When making an MMO, you really have 3 options:
    1. Compete across the board on all features - That's your Star Citizen approach, you are going to be the gold standard of your genre and take on the biggest studios. This requires that you either be one of the biggest studios or find a fan base suffering from cranial trauma.
    2. Have a desirable feature, with the rest of the systems being passable - Your basic Sea of Thieves approach, you count on your key feature to pull in fans and the rest of your systems not driving them away.
    3. Have a feature that is so desirable that the rest of your game doesn't matter - your Minecraft, once on a decade game, you basically pray that lightning strikes.
    SotA fit comfortably into the second category, but kind of forgot to add that desirable feature. The systems are passable, but nothing to write home about, the closest it came to a killer feature was having RG involved, but his star has been on the decline since Tabula Rosa.

    If Catnip really wanted to make a SotA 2, they would have to compete in that second category still, and that means finding a feature and making it the axle that the game revolves around. Personally, I think the idea of the virtues and anti-virtues with towns aligning themselves to each could make for a dynamic world that could fill that role, but Catnip and Port before them have always played it conservatively.
     
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  5. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    The question is can it accomplish the goal? The answer to that is yes because if there is any defficiency then you can add that capability directly yourself without jumping through hoops or paying big bucks for the privilege to do so.
     
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  6. Traveller13

    Traveller13 Bug Hunter

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    "Take the Star Citizen approach..." "Take as much time as they want..." I happily backed both games. I play both games-- SotA more than SC. I'm not so sure I'm going to live long enough to see either game complete. SQ42-- single-player SC (which I have pre-purchased)-- is ten years into development and there is still no release date, not even a hint of one from CIG. We're 10 or so years into S0tA development and have maybe 1.25 out of 5 episodes complete. So, no, don't take the SC approach. Things are dragging on and on and on enough as it is.
     
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  7. Senash Kasigal

    Senash Kasigal Avatar

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    Aside from the fact that it's not going to happen anyway, I don't think Godot would be an improvement over unity.

    I am working with UE 5 since EA, thats 23 month, and I cant think of anything what cant be accomplished. Even for a small team without big bucks. Yes, UE has a steep learning curve, but the results are worth it. From what I understand, Godot is, like Unity, not really good for big games (open world streaming and multiplayer). At least it doesn't work out of the box. Nanite and Lumen not only good for stunning graphics, they also big dev time savers. No need for LODs anymore and realistic lightning is a peace of cake now.
    Here is a short and I think a fair comparison.



    btw I made, out of nostalgia, a 16x16km map (4096 streaming proxies) in UE5 from Novias OW Map. :)
     
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  8. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    I can't speak for their release schedule but I do know that streaming is on their plate and I bet it makes it in before the end of the year.
     
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  9. Ravalox

    Ravalox Chief Cook and Bottle Washer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    I am moving this thread to the Fire Lotus Tavern as the conversation is not about game play.

    Also please note that we have stated our position on changing engines. No matter which engine it might be the development time and cost makes it not feasible. We are not looking at Unreal Engine, for future DLC or for a re-write.

    Please see the final post in this thread: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...h-to-unreal-engine.163564/page-4#post-1354837
     
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  10. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Doing this game over isn't an answer imo. During the creation with all the craziness with zillion opinions about what this game should be was what gave us the game we have today. Also A few years ago Devs took the initiative to improve and add much as they could feasibly do with finances available. Imo it paid off in many ways which are not always easy to see for some.

    With the additions of new skills, even a bard tree, and mounts (while pretty basic it was a desired feature by many.

    I also feel imo our music system is pretty awesome as is. Also our deco system while better in almost every way than other games and is one of the best features of this game.

    Anyway I do hear you and I still hope for improvements and more interest being added to current systems as well as more to come in the near future. I always believe it's the details that make a huge difference and we have some detail oriented Devs at work
     
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  11. Seggallion

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    When I say the SC approach, I mean create one zone or area. Use that to develop all the systems in the game, before adding content. Not necessarily take ten years doing it.
     
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  12. Sargon

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    Might I recommend starting in a small room with a chicken?
     
  13. craftymethod

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    Music system is cool from a 90's perspective. Not from a keeping the juke box filled with the correct urls to community radio stations, live performances or any musicians other than midi file transcribers.

    I'd like to think RG's off producing an ocean map and ships game where you go explore islands etc in valhiem kinda dynamic ocean. That way you are building first what sota is lacking and with any commitment to continuity, systems are ported across from there over time.

    But considering 'Iron and Magic', im not sure such a naming misfire gives me much optimism. Nor the apparent abandonment of that project too.
     
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  14. majoria70

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    Well we shall see. And as this game goes forward we can only speak for it. The more asked for things that get added can only give it better chances for more loyal followers. I know that number is small ATM but it does exist. Imagine if we did get a boating system even if on a smaller scope and a x marks the spot with quests and map pieces to find type of treasure hunting and sellable bags of goods. Every missing piece will make a difference to this games longevity and player base. Those who find it will find a gem or diamond in the rough. Some will find a home here.
     
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  15. Eveara

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    That is wishful thinking.

    Not that hundreds of thousands in crowdfunding are doable. They... probably are. The generosity of this specific community has done wonders more than once.

    No, the wishful thinking is that it'd change anything in the long run. They've reached the point where they're trying to make miracles happen with two pieces of cardboard and a roll of tape a looonnng time ago. The mere amount of bugs in most of Mistrendur's scenes is more proof than anyone would ever need... and no amount of crowdfunding would solve that. Bad decisions were made from the start, and way too many worse decisions followed. Strong vision and leadership lacked then and are still nowhere to be seen now. And don't get me wrong here... I've worked for a company that was in this exact same situation 11 years ago – I know all too well this is not the current staff's fault.

    'Live and let live', @Seggallion – I know you mean well, I know how pure your intentions are, still... 'live and let live'. There's nothing you can do. For there's nothing to be done. Enjoy the game as it is and for what it is.
     
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  16. Seggallion

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    I always want to be clear in my statements. I LOVE SOTA as it is. I will keep playing in its current state. As I say a lot, I have played every mainstream MMORPG out there. None of them have ever caught or kept my attention like SOTA. I am not ungrateful for the SOTA we have.

    I come from a LEAN culture where people seek out continuous improvement. As a software engineer of warehouse management systems, I am familiar with the pitfalls of development. Like you said, it was all the zillions of opinions and changing things mid stream that ties a developer's hands going forward. The plan was to hand draw all the maps. Half way through development when the original devs learned that wasn't feasible, they had to come up with an ad-hoc solution on the fly. I am sure there were hundreds of those situations and they probably don't all gel together. I will bet that because of some decision made on one system, that another system can't implement a function.

    There is no need to start over because the game is terrible and should be re-done from the ground up. That is not what I am saying. I am saying it might be best in the long term to start over free of the "tech debt" from the original version. Imagine a small zone where the devs could fully implement an auto-generating map system or develop a dynamic quest tracking system with all the bells and whistles. Take all the ideas of SOTA, the crafting, the skill system, the artifacts, etc., and port them into SOTAv2 along with all the new ideas the devs have that couldn't be implemented in the old version.
     
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