SOTA's Target Audience is too broad.

Doesn't change the nature of the game. Lot of UO players had families, jobs and a lot of responsibility. Doesn't mean online play should be fast and easy. Once EP1 launches we're here for another 7-10+ years.. It's not something you play for only 15-20 minutes a day while you're riding the bus.

 

That's certainly true. But I'm not sure all the casual play fits into "we're going to be making this game for 10 years". I'm paraphrasing RG when he was in a conference in Germany last year.

Fast, easy, and casual...how long has candy crush been around?

I wish they talked like that. Even in the Developer hangouts, Chris, Starr, and RG sound like they want all the movement because it's "fun", but they don't want the movement only because of what it does to the servers. I've never once heard them comment on the impact of roleplaying or how they want less movement because this is an RPG.

 

You bring up good points, but it's not absurd to think of SOTA combat as being similar to an FPS (on the pvp side). Is it slower and does it require less clicks per second? Yes absolutely. But like I said, it's just a bad FPS.

 

Here's a release 10 video of PVP...see a lot of standing around? (trust me, this is what pvp in R13 looks like too)

 

Except the defining aspect of a FPS is quick, precision, manual aiming. If you don't aim correctly, you don't hit anything.

SotA is a tab-target game with no manual aiming.

It should also be noted that the purpose of PvP is to put player skill directly against player skill. If some players are uncomfortable with twich gaming, then PvP isn't something they are ever going to be interested in. Trying to change PvP to cater to people who aren't interested in it doesn't make sense.

That was before they put in a massive advantage for standing still.

 

Twitch gaming is not skill based, it's internet connection based. I have several examples of that I can show you if you'd like.

You're totally correct about the tab targeting, but that doesn't exclude the twitchiness of SOTA combat. See video proof above, or stand around Owl's Head for 10 minutes - you'll see what I mean.

But whatever, this thread isn't about the semantics of what we're calling SOTA combat, it's about making the game for the people that will play it for 10 years and not for 10 minutes. My argument is that people that like twitchy combat are not coming here. People that like twtichy combat are playing on their Playstation, XBOX, or on a server where they can script bots to one hit kill everything that moves. So why are we making this game more for them than the people that like to roleplay? I don't get it.

 

I guess our opinion of casual gaming is different. A casual player to me plays maybe an hour a day after the kiddos go to bed and then a couple of hours on the weekends when they aren't working. When I hear people say we don't want "casual players" I assume that to mean you need to live your life online.

 

Find me a video of R13 where people are just standing around. I've played enough pvp in R13 to know this doesn't happen.

 

I find it oddly dismissive that all people who enjoy twitch combat play a game for 10 minutes and abandon it.

The #1 played game on Steam is DOTA 2, 2 years later.
The #2 played game on Steam is Counter Strike, 16 years later.
The #3 played game on Steam is Team Fortress 2, 8 years later.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You don't find any old RPGs on that list.

Again, PvP players want twitch combat to emphasize player skill. You want to remove player skill, which is the defining aspect of PvP to appeal to people who don't like PvP. That makes no sense.

Furthermore, anyone who truly plays for 10 years as opposed to 10 minutes will get better as a player and have no problems with SotA combat, especially given how slow and easy it is compared to other games.

 

Setting aside different people's definition of what "twitch" means... there's are certain aspects of PvP you can't really ignore and you can't strip PvP from RP. If this is an online role-playing game.. then you simply must have PvP. And when PvP hits.. people are going to play in which ever manner is the most advantageous to winning (or in the least, not dying). That usually means a lot of running around.

No one is saying lag isn't going to be a problem when it rears its ugly little head.. but I remind everyone that most of the game isn't streamlined yet.. and it's always going to be an issue so long as you're playing online. If you want lag free combat you may as well play offline.

 

Could you please show me an RPG with twitch combat that makes an impressive list like that? Don't you see the irony of your post? People that like twtich play twitch...they don't play RPG's like SOTA. So who are we making this game for?

 

Regarding skill....

Does chess require skill? Does chess require twitch?

[check mate]

 

Industry definition of casual gaming is stuff like tetris or solitaire. Something you can pick up and play for 10-20 minutes at a time.

If you have an hour to play than you have enough time to do most normal things in an RPG without things being made unneceesarily easy.. and if you play regularly even if it's only 1 hour a day you can still make a lot of progress over the long haul.

That said though.. I just don't buy not having time as a long term excuse. People make time for what they want to do. Yes things get hectic and busy for people.. but most people always find time for stuff. Are you going to play SotA? Or spend 3 hours watching your favorite TV shows 3 or 4 times a week? Read a book? maybe...

It would be a rare thing indeed when people literally have "no time" for extended periods.

 

I would agree with your initial point that the game is being offered as something that will be all things to all people but focusing on PVP is causing people to miss some of the real problems we've got right now. The end goal is very different from the initial proposals and we end up with people saying this isn't quite the game for me. It is time to make real defining design steps and get on with it instead of offering vaporware until you can get a couple bucks.

This game has lots of potential but it desperately needs to be tightened up and some hard decisions need to be made.

 

I'd settle for the developers expanding on what their vision is concerning some of these topics. (at the risk of losing some people)

For me, I'm so heavily invested I'm not going anywhere. If the game has bad pvp, I just wont pvp. But for many other people, they're going to be looking for a core experience (I have always assumed that would be based on roleplaying) and there are aspects of the game that are too casual, too twitchy, and that make it too difficult to roleplay. Unless of course you're planning on playing single player or friends only mode, I guess you can do whatever you want then. I didn't buy this game for a Never Winter Nights sequel though, I wanted an MMO feel that delivered foundational RPG elements, especially in pvp.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm finding the "it's too casual" discussion a bit.. vague. What features specifically do people think are too 'casual'? and how would you change them?

 

I hope other people list their ideas on this as well. (instead of debating what I'm about to say below)

Off the top of my head I think reagents should be required for all spells. I think the economy should be based on regional travel. I think command line tools like "/zone" and "/home" etc, should all be removed. I think there should be pvp collision. I think magic should be more difficult and sophisticated. I think there should be a more robust stealing and looting (consensual) system. I think that if you don't talk to NPC's and learn the lore (to some degree) you should probably be at a loss in this game.

Again, just off the top of my head. The short answer is that it should be a roleplaying game first before it's anything else.

 

Well I'm confident we won't have the / commands post release..

Reagents I have to agree in principle. I'm not really sure exactly what they plan to do but I've heard and posted ideas in this regard that I hope would make it in. You know I see SotA as a natural extension of Ultima so of course spells should require reagents. I think some of the discussion on this topic is one of those 'casual' things that really stuck in my mind as well.

I've always wanted magic in games to be rather more special and not as common but what are you going to do?

Stealing I've read is slated for EP2. Anyone care to confirm?

I semi-recently posted an idea that could allow for consenual looting without ransom. Chris liked it apparently. The basic idea was to use the skill system to customize your PvP experience. Instead of speading points on skill, you'd spend it to unlock PvP settings. (This would replace "PvP Skills"). I'm really interested to see if they do anything with it.

Just off the top of my head I can't think of features or current thinking I find too 'casual' but I know there's probably a couple more I'm concerned about. Just drawing a blank today. I suppose I'm not overly worried but there's a quite a bit of 'current thinking' I find contradictory but those are really other topics.

 

I'm reading this thread and I'm not sure what to get out of it.

Things are to casual? I don't know about that, I think they are pretty solid in a lot of things they have done.

What they haven't done was recreate a lot of the things from UO which upset a few of you.

People are well aware with what I think they have done so far as in content and what is lacking, at the moment it seems that anything story wise will be tacked onto the mmo they have made.

 

I don't think the devs have said this publicly. My memory says that long ago they said something like "maybe for episode 2", as if it were to happen it would not be until then.