STARTING the game: how many clicks are necessary? How much guide is necessary? How much story?

Referring to this thread, I thought about what happened over the last years ...

IF YOU AREN'T INTERESTED IN THE PAST and reading so much text - JUST JUMP DOWN, PLEASE, TO
--> LET ME DO A FEW LAST SUGGESTIONS <--
_____________________________________________________________________
THE HISTORY of getting started ...
1. In the beginning it was clear:
You enter a new world, meet Arabella, who tells how to incarnate at the mirror. Head to the mirror, chose your body. (Annoying: load time at the mirror)
Continue to the Oracle. The Oracle asks questions and accordingly we find ourselves on the path of love, truth or courage. Through the Lunar Rift ... (load time) Journey onward.

2. Then, to provide people the possibility to enter the path, they wanted (especially while in work for testing), we could change our decision!
--> We could tell, if we want to be a "mage"(!), a "Ranger"(!) or a "Fighter"(!) - to enter truth, love or courage path. In a classless system
This destroyed the whole intro with the Oracle!
What significance did our decision have? The time to read and answer everything.
And then? If you want to change your mind, just do it!

This "may you want to do another path?" - thing unnecessarily exaggerated the dialogue with the oracle.
More keywords, more text! Without any added value - except for the confusion of the new player ...

3. Starting scenes, like Solace Bridge, now got information for new players to find their way in playing the game - how it works.
"Take a bow/sword" - "do this" - "...", help windwos appeared.
--> I wrote alot of posts, asking about just to tell a new player to "take a weapon" - instead of a bow or sword ... why was this so difficult???

4. Later, the decision was made to put in an intro to teach game basics, because so many NEW players told, they wouldn't understand how the game (UI) worked!
--> So the little girl, @kaeshiva mentioned in the thread above, came in to tell basics ...

Well, a new player got the possiblity(!) to say: "Yes, tell me!", or "No, I go on my own!".
That seemed okay to me, because there are people reading an instruction, before using new stuff, and there are people, just doing it by "try and error" ...
My feeling: the intro was too long (nice, but too long).
Jsut tell, what is necessary NOW, short, less words ...

5. Well, last step followed: get rid of the intro (not only the little girl) and start with Character creation.
Now it's a kind of starting with "Character creation" like WOW ... or early Ultima games

Former removed information on screen now came back and also an aoutmaton in the starting scene ... to show somebody how to use a skill on hot/combobar ...

No choice for the path (an essential part of the game, how it was told by Lord British!) ...
All new players are starting in Solace Bridge. The most polished path?
I don't think so. It's the path where a new player has alot of problems going on because of difficulty!
--> I told every new player to start with truth, followed by courage and then love ...
To make it easier, Samael (or Ariel) should accompany us to Shuttered Eye Tower ...

After the former intro video wasn't available any longer, now the whole intro was gone ...

Isn't an intro the entry into a new world and shouldn't it be available at least on start menu?

Especially for offline mode - for all people who backed this game for a -Ultima like- Story.
Not for just fighting endless beasts or building houses!
Which is -of course- also fun and a way to play, but NOT exactly what a player dreamed of, thinking about a story driven Role Playing Game (with 5 Episodes!) ...
____________________________________________________________

LET ME DO A FEW LAST SUGGESTIONS
(for everybody's play style and in the name of "quality of life" improvement):

HOW IT WORKS NOW, STARTING THE GAME:
1. Double clicking the icon "Shroud of the Avatar" opens a small window with 3 options, showing the patch information, if one is available.
After updating the game, we may chose:
- option menu (gear)
- Release notes (can't see it? Wear your glasses...)
- Rewards Program info
- Play button

2. After clicking Play it shows a big window with title and
- Play button (again)

3. Another window shows options
- Play online
- Play offline
- Options
- Credits
- Quit
- Shroud of the Avatar Rewards Program (again)


HOW IT COULD WORK, STARTING THE GAME:

FIRST SUGGESTION:
START with the big window - TITLE (2.) and let the small window appear ONLY, if a new patch is available, to show, that a download is going on.

--> This saves one click while starting the game (one click every day is alot ...)

SECOND SUGGESTION:
EXPAND the options with:

I Intro + Character creation
(--> put in the former intro --> Let the decision with the oracle be a decision!
It would be great, if a player could receivee a SPECIAL ITEM DEPENDING ON THE FIRST CHOSEN PATH (Belt of ...) AND / OR a (only one time!) +10 to stats, for example, chosing the
Path of truth: +10 INT, Path of Courage: +10 STR, Path of Love: +10 DEX
The FIRST DECISION in game should have a meaning/consequence

II Character creation only [for the impatient] (--> face the mirror)

III Learn about basic functions of the game (to meet the girl / Automaton to learn more about skill and UI management and to honor the work, which was done to provide information for new players!)

THIRD SUGGESTION:
Get rid of the Automaton in Solace Bridge (destracts the story feeling), get rid of information, a (new) player won't need to succeed, like "you should look into the tavern"
--> as a matter of fact NOTHING important for the whole story can be found in there! A letter about a person who is not in game and not even the Hammer of Raymond, which is still missing from a former quest

Get Edvard back to lead us over the bridge. That was a nice thing to bring the player straight to the next interesting scene (Solace Bridge Outskirts) - instead of running wild in the wrong direction ...

May be, with arriving in Outskirts, the first Soldier tells to visit the Trainer, if we want to learn more about skill improvement ...

LAST SUGGESTION:
Get rid of keywords not helping to improve the quality of game / life!
For example: How it was done with keyword "buy" with Solace Bridge Outskirts Soldier dialogues

Thank you for reading my thoughts ... fare well and have a good time

 

I disagree with you about not being able to reverse the Oracle's decision. What about a courage-driven character who wants to start as an archer? A player who wants to start in the area where their friends already are? Or my mage, who really is Truth-driven and will eventually undertake the Truth questline first, but whose backstory has her growing up in Ardoris, so I wanted her to start there? There's lots of reasons why the (fairly arbitrary) virtue questions might not reflect the best place for a character to start.

Still, having those questions with no opportunity to change the Oracle's decision would be better than our current only-one-starting-point for everyone.

And I very much agree with you that there ought to be some permanent consequence of your initial virtue choice -- something tangible, not just the memory of how your character evolved, although that's important too. I initially assumed the banners and helms were that reward and that the initial starter quest was only available to people starting that path first, but I was obviously wrong about that. Either some kind of decoration or clothing item that is absolutely NOT available except to people who chose that path first (unless they choose to sell it) or some kind of specific buff. I'd rather we could choose our own starting stats, but short of that, your idea for a stat buff would be great.

Alas, all moot until they decide to give new players some choice again.

 

hmm I thought the new characters now just get the mirror to make the character and name it then right into the first story part now. They got rid of a lot of the old stuff to make things much quicker to get into the game.

there is some direction and it asks you if you want to adventure or homestead first.

As to Virtue there are things that do affect you like quests that you can or cannot do. As well mentioned that in Ep2 it has even more affects on the path it leads you down. There are even many items that are virtue based.

 

@Xee Homesteading made it in? When does it ask? Does it teleport you to a rando town, as they originally said would happen?

 

Paladin Michael has summed up the evolution of the 'starting area' very well.
I think for me it just all feels over complicated.
Some players will love the quaint, nostalgic feel and the having-dialoge-with-NPC, others will find it clunky, confusing, and just click through it, missing whatever "important information" you're trying to give them.

Being the sort of person who has played (or at least tried) nearly MMO that ever was, and also the sort of person who tends to make a lot of alts, I have been through these 'new player start' scenarios many, many times and seen a variety of different ways that its done.

Too much information too fast - "game has steep learning curve", is too confusing, don't want to deal with it now, end up just faffing about and either figuring it out or failing. All I need to know at the beginning is basic controls and movement and some semblance of why my character is here.

Not enough information - This is actually not as bad, because it means you can explore and figure stuff out without being put through a squint-at-screen-read-wall-0f-text exercise. There's more to come, and it gets opened up to you gradually as you meet certain thresholds. As long as the information is -available- should the player want it, this is actually fine.
Some of the successful early MMOs did not 'hold players hands' and I don't think we need to.

As @Vladamir Begemot pointed out the dialogue system is really a hindrance here, it creates complication where there need not be any. Let me make my character and go poke something with a stick and see how the game feels, let me get used to it, then tell me more about my place in the world and purpose.
The current starting system is kinda like going to buy a fancy new car, and you want to test drive it, but first you have to sit through three lectures on how to operate the controls and then you can only drive it on this very small course and can't go above this speed and you have to stop every few feet to read more information.

When trying to get friends to play Sota, the biggest stumbling block 100% of the time is the story quest and/or dialogue system issues:

• I don't know where to go. [map/waypoint issue/quest journal issue]
• Why does this waypoint send me nowhere. [map/waypoint issue]
• Why wont this npc take this quest item / why wont he advance the quest, I've done what he asked, etc. [quest/journal issue]
• What do I need to say to xx guy? [quest/journal isue]
• Where do I find xx guy ? [map/journal/waypoint issue]
• I've come to where waypoint is, but nobody is here.[waypoint issue or NPC SCHEDULE issue]
• What is this lunar rift thing, do I really have to sit here and wait for it?[general travel issue that confuses people]
• All this stuff I'm picking up, whats it for, do I need to keep it (Item toolips, pleeeease) [itemization issues]

The last serious attempt I made to 'recruit a friend' resulted in them getting stuck in some sort of endless waypoint loop that kept pointing them to lunar rifts that were never "at the right time of day" and they ended up getting lost all over the world, couldn't find their way back to where they needed to be, and logged off in a fit of rage. I think I played a month before I ever realised the lunar rifts were travel circles on schedules, they just weren't important. Don't point people there!

I would suggest, at a minimum:

• Standard, linear quest progression/dialogue, at least at the start. Hearing an npc repeat the same thing over and over, or fail to recognize what you're saying and feeding you the equivalent of "I don't understand" is maddening.
• Remove lunar rifts from any sort of waypoint/journal progression. Players will learn what they are eventually but until the waypoint system/quest journal works as intended, they just cause problems with the 'waiting for it to point to the right place' issue.
• Most of us started the game without waypoints and maps and we figured it out. If we're going to have waypoints and maps, they need to be a) functional b) complete c) accurate d)unambiguous. If they are not these things, they are better off not being there.

The last point has to do with itemization. This is the most common stuff I am asked by new folks - what is xyz for.
Most other games give you some sort of clue, when you hover over something, "this item is used in crafting" "this is a house decoration." or if the item has no use, "This can be sold to a vendor."
They are in their newbie zone and they're picking things up and you get overburdened pretty quickly. What to save? What to throw? What to store? I'm in the habit of letting new folks live in one of my spare houses until they can get situated. We don't use the tenant system typically, because then we can't leave items for each other / often I'll give them some sort of crafting work if interested and we need to be set up to share permissions and they reasonably trust me to not steal all their newbiestuff. Watching them accumulate stuff and seeing how they organize it is an interesting social experiment but also one that is very telling. There is almost inevitably a box of "dont know what its for" that ends up with a lot of things that have no use, crafting materials, stuff that they've obviously stolen from somewhere, etc. This is where I think we need to help hook people. Its not the first 30 minutes of play, its day 3, when they've gotten through the basics and need to start understanding how to get stuff, make money, and outfit themselves, see the more complex combat options, learn about blessings, about housing, about all the systems sota has to offer.

 

not sure, never tried but that was my understanding of how it works.

 

I posted this today in another thread, seems this one is as good a fit for it.

I'd also add I don't think ranger/mage/warrior should be mentioned at all. It starts new players out with the notion that classes exist when they don't.

 

I think this is a misunderstanding:
Everybody can be what (s)he wants to be:
Archer, Mage, Fighter, Ranger ... whatever!
After you are incarnated, you may go wherever you want to go and share your adventure with others

The entire starting sequence with the Oracle has the purpose of identifying the main virtue most important to the player!
It's not about what profession he feels called to. By her/his decision (s)he is sent to the path that corresponds to HER/HIS main virtue.
That's all. Why should someone who has made a decision for her/his main virtue change it? That makes no sense in this context

And if a main virtue is identified, someone should receive a UNIQUE item / stat, like I suggested above, to support him on his main virtue.
Does not this make sense?

 

Good summery of issues to be addressed, kaeshiva
We have so many of them from alot of people ...

I just wanted to focus on one, which you also said:

We know: Journal and Quest system change with Episode 2 (whenever this will start ...)

Meanwhile, please: get rid of what we can get rid - and focus on things, which are necessary.
Focus on telling a player, what (s)he needs to know and where to go - to have fun ...

 

Does this focus group meet on Thursdays?

 

Unfortunately I don't know I just hope, a few things may be discussed and changed over the next months ...

 

Exactly,
If you start as an archer, after what feels like a lifetime, they will come in destroy your build... (AGAIN) and you will get to restart as a Fire/ Life Mage just like everyone else. One of Us.. One of us...

 

Just wanted to give another example referring to the thread title "how many clicks are necessary?"
In buy/sell dialogue, or crafting ...

Does anyone know of any other unnecessary clicking situations whose prevention would improve the quality of life?
Do not hesitate to tell us

 

Sure, the whole vendor UI takes about 1200 clicks to remove/restock your inventory.

They've got a new UI design for it that I sent them. As with all of it, I'm sure it all comes down to time.

 

Nope, there is no homesteading option. The devs have vaguely talked about the possibility one day maybe perhaps, but it's definitely not in the game now.

As for too many clicks... closing out of the game definitely. Mind you, I probably have more clicks than most people since I'm often logging out of one character to log in to another alt, but even so, from Exit through "Your character is still in the game, do you want to Resume?" NO or I wouldn't have clicked Exit, then at least two more "Are you really really sure you want to quit" messages before it finally believes me that I want to quit the app....

 

Not at the beginning, you can't be. You're an archer, period.

When there was a choice... when I joined, there was no official hint that the different starter areas were linked to skills in any way. I picked up the Solace Bridge/Archer, Blood River/mage, etc. connection from reading the forums, and they changed the NUE again before I had time to test out Blood River, so I don't know what advantages a would-be mage might have gotten from that. But I know Solace Bridge gives you the Bridge Defender's Bow and an abundance of arrows, while Highvale gave you plenty of Defender's Swords. Sure, you can pick different skills and habits later on, but if you're playing with any sense of connection to your avatar, then those first initial experiences -- and the equipment you're given -- make a difference in how your character evolves. You can't be want whatever you want to be unless first you decide what that is; the fact that may change later on doesn't matter in the beginning, you still start out as one thing (even if that's a not-particularly-competent jack-of-all-trades).

 

This is incorrect, you can immidiately switch, before seeing your first zombie. The problem is players don't know it.

 

You can switch weapons, sure. But the scene still gives you a bunch of decent starter bows and an abundance of arrows, with nothing else available but rusty swords. And the scene still requires you to learn a second-level archery skill, without giving you the option to learn something else. And the scene gives you nothing about learning magic at all. Sannio even said, when I asked about it, that Solace Bridge was the scene that turned you into an archer so they just left it that way.

As in the stream I posted -- the guy's reaction was "what, I HAVE to be an archer? I don't want to be an archer." And that wasn't in response to anything I told him, it was what the game was telling him in practice.