State of Shroud of the Avatar. <Opinion>

If it is because of less practice and knowledge i agree.
If it is because of limitless progression and having no caps i disagree.
Try and do a thought experiment.
Choose 1 weapon, choosing locks all other weapon trees.
Choose 1 armortype. Choose 3 or 4 magic trees, only one can be mastered (Mastery skill) rest will be locked, choose 6 from harvesting, refining, producing so you can only have a few and depend on the market (create economy). Hard cap of 100 and you can only have 5 GM. Decide what is more important. 1 producer skill or 2 at GM? 5 GM in a magic tree or 1or 2 in a weapon tree?
Tons of sandbox mechanics created.
People cannot solo Dragons anymore, groups required, healer, tanks, dd versus specific mobs like Fire, Water, Undead required. PvP varied, no one can beat everyone. Strength and Weakness. Nobody uber. Metagame andgroup organizations required. Sandbox.
Yes then people do twinks, but things get more challenging, interactive and balanced. And most important lots of participants.
And death decay is something that keeps you to fight, because you will die and need to restock your applied xp to keep things at 80 and 5 at GM.
Imo this would be a way more interesting game and grindy enough.
I just tried to get my main stat skills to 80.
It will take me weeks if not month to do that, because even if i could i wont start grinding high xp/ h spots for 100 hours now.
It's dull.

 

Capping levels/skills is only part of the big picture. Most games that have survived for the long haul allow alternative means of advancement, whether it is in the acquisition of things, achievements, etc. Long-shot content that takes months/years to achieve. Long-term goals. Alternate characters/classes which allow a fresh experience/perspective. Many games continue to run for years on a hard-core, dedicated playerbase yes, but there's also a large amount of player churn - people come in, max out, and move on. You don't see people staying in a single game for a 5-10 year stint unless they can still progress and develop in some meaningful way. I know there's always going to be exceptions to this, but I'm just talking 'most players' - not the few niche hardcore dedicated core players. While some will stay for their friends, their guild, and the community they've built, most will move on once the game can no longer provide meaningful and interesting content for them on a daily basis. I also find the more casual the player, the longer they tend to stay in any one game, presumably because it takes that much longer to consume all the available content. If you look at something like WoW, there's an expansion and cap increase and all new stuff every couple of years which is how they keep people interested. If WoW were still what it was at vanilla days with a cap of 50 I think most of the folks would have moved on a long time ago.

Many, many many games have shut down or have very low life support level populations precisely because there's nothing there to keep (a large amount of) people interested long-term. What do you consider an active player? Someone who logs on every day for 5-6 hours and does stuff? These people need something to do to justify staying online that long. If you're just counting up the folks who log on a few times a week for an hour a session, then yeah, progress and achievement becomes less important.

If there's no more progres, then you...log on and do, what exactly?

 

Grind and do daily quests.
Owait there are a ton of posts that complain about grind.
So i guess uhhh.....i honestly don't know

 

I play the sandbox.
RPvX plus economy.
This requires a endgame playfield were regarding pvp only or mostly playerskill counts.
This requires dependencies between players.
This requires Roleplayers in a Roleplaygame and gamemechanics they can use instead of endless grind and best xp/ hour Spots.
Progress and achievement then it's fluff like virtue banners quests and Metagame. Your Reputation for Factions and/ or in the community. Metagame RPvP.
Metagame like we had in DFO or have in EvE.
Actually the system discourage all of this.
People play solo at best and need not to interact at all.
PvP is only for hardcore grinders with apropriate skills and gear.
What is this a game, a "second life" with a grind Job implemented?
And that this is what lot of players want?
Then where are they?

 

You are aware that EvE is the exemplar for a game where you skill into eternity and beyond?
Skilling all skills to max in EvE takes several decades.

 

You're kind of making my point for me, here.
Economic gain is, in essence, a form of progress and achievement - you play to get richer or acquire more things.

Your idea of end-game may work with a ffa pvp type game where reputation etc. matters. But Sota is not ffa pvp - so its apples and oranges.

In your vision the sustainability of the game would be in the interaction with the community, in which you build a reputation and log on and...kill people and do economic stuff. That may be enough for you, but with no further way to improve your character by means of levels, skills, or gear - I think killing people every day for no discernible benefit would get old pretty quickly - at least it would for me. Certainly not something I'd be compelled to log into on a daily basis and something I'd be even less likely to continue to spend money on.

The whole grind-job life is one of the biggest problems with Sota, is that many mechanics in the game force you right back to grinding to pay your tax sink and your xp sink. The current system isn't long term sustainable, I agree with you there.

 

But if you couldn't progress anymore, why would you grind or do daily quests?

 

Wait? What end game in SOTA? Why would you want to drop the effort needed to get to "end game" when there is no end game?
The answer is not rushing to hit "max level" (or whatever counts for that). The answer is adding more interesting, varied content. Something more than grinding mobs in adventure areas, or defeating unlimited waves in CP's, or PVP.

 

Have to agree here, I honestly think it needs more effort, not less.

There's something to be said for putting in effort, not only do you get the tangible gains, but you also get the journey/experience. Currently that journey is very grind heavy, and that's a problem - but by spending the time doing the grind or whatever activity you're trying to do, you get better at it, you learn things about the game, its mechanics, about skills and synergy, about effiiciency, all these tiny intangibles that make up the game experience. I really don't think you should 'skip' it or 'shorten' it ...otherwise what's the point?

If you just wanna blitz to the end and PvP, that's your choice, but the game shouldn't change to suit just that 1 preference. Honestly, there's far more suitable games if you want an 'even playing field 'pvp sandbox with little thought needed to skills, gear, and character development and heavy emphasis on "player skill" and ability to buttonmash.

There have been many suggestions over the years to make the grind more meaningful/interesting - I hope we start to see some of them. If we can't make it more interesting, we can at least stop compounding the problem with all the sinks/loss.

 

Exactly.
With hard limits and hard caps and something worth in pvp scenes like
rare drops think of Artifacts or rare recipes and rare ressources at a higher rate we have a sandbox core to develop around.
With no caps and the measures at level 100+ for pvp we have only grind.
With no dependencies between players, no weaknesses other than lack of time to grind to 100+ we can invent dozens of sandbox mechanics like sieges, they will farm them solo as today to flood the market with Artifacts, recipes and such.
Who is flooding, not the average player, but the hardcore grinders.
Who is participating in pvp and sandbox Elements like sieges? The hardcore grinders. The average player is around level 50-80, maybe stucks there because of decay maybe get to 85 or 90 and then, when he can solo everything we end up leaving because of dull grind or achieving to the next skillpoint to 120, 130, 140, 150 whatever while repeatedly killing the same stuff on the same place for thousands of hours.
But those actually define the measures if you want to partake in the open sandbox and want to compete in economy/ crafting or pvp.
Not fun, not successfull, nothing i'll or can ever join.

 

I'm sure you also rarely carried much of value as I did in order to not feel any pain. My problem with full loot games is that it very quickly turns to bank hoarding all of the cool stuff with special items only coming out for special occasions.

 

I cannot agree with this sentiment more. It is very specifically the episode 1 story content that I feel needs to be balanced towards a casual player. I, as a more casual player, am not expecting to solo sieges or dragons. If someone plays enough to be able to that is fine by me. I just don't have the time for that to become anything other than group combat. However, those heights need to be reachable because it is also a solo player game in addition to a multiplayer game.

Turning to pick on the JRPG genre for a moment as my example, which isn't very RP-like more than they tend to be narrative. But in these games players who just run straight through and don't hunt down special items or tackle extra bosses tend to finish the game quite easily in the 50-60 range of a 100 level game. By level 70, they can pretty much sleep through the final storyline elements. But if they choose to go for it, they can go get The Ultimate Sword from an enemy you would be foolish to approach at less than 80. The casual player is able to complete the narrative without much strife. Which is doubly important for episodic games like Shroud is intended to be. But there are plenty of places that exist 'off the tracks' where the hardcore can challenge themselves.

I think Shroud has done admirable with the off-the-tracks content in dungeons and sieges and dragons. The multiplayer option allows less than ready players to experience the content in groups, which is great. However I feel the narrative story is tweaked a little too much to the difficult end.

 

To be completely honest... I always carried the absolute best I could use, because my house was full to the brim just by adventuring around casually. I had something like 20 backup halberds of vanquishing, so I always started with the best I had. I had a thief character too, on this one I carried player crafted stuff, because I had even more of those and died much more often.

It would balance itself in the long run, and this made crafters feel really useful and busy. Some people hoarded, but then that would mean the crafters would have more job, win win.

In fact I felt an obligation to use the best, so I would have a nice reputation and lure more reds to attack me. I would even carry rare or unique clothing for many years, just to make sure I was a mouth watering target.

When EA trashed the live story arc to the profit of RMT, I went berserk... traded all I had for a perfect 7GM pure mage named Brainbug and went on a rampage, I survived 8 months straight without dying, and I only hunted fair fights, in high level dungeons, where I was sure not to fall upon any new player or miner.

I often took whole guilds all by myself, and on a rare occasion when the odds were too much 6 to 1 or more, I would call my best friend Nick-of-Time to act as a grey healer, he loved the opportunity for some really risky action.

When I died (because our common best friend treacherously ambushed us with 200 people at Leiha's rune library)... they bought over 400 pets and used invis on them so I would lag out and die without any fair chance. By some miracle in the nick-of-time... Nick-Of-Time managed to snatch my head, using red potions to get on top of me and using ctrl shift and right click to remove one by one the clutter that was there because many people killed each other for my head which was worth over 3000$ USD if I sold the gold...

I was the second biggest bounty of atlantic for the whole bounty era and by far... the only one that topped me was the infamous grandmaster tinker "boom box".

That night I lost 15% of my stats, basically perma-death, but my best friend (Nick) whom I trusted more than anyone, handed me my head in the most friendly gesture I had ever witnessed in an online game.

I could have done nothing had he decided to keep my head... he just handed me 3000$ USD with a smile.

Of course I was so frustrated with EA that I let my head decay on the ground, and went even more berserk... I trashed all my server birth rares (I was one of the first people to catch these were only available once, I had over 200), there was for over 15k USD worth... and all my collection of seer clothing and unique items, worth over 10k USD.

I cried for many days, what mattered to me wasn't that I had lost my only remaining character... nor that I had lost so much money, nor that I refused to join the RMT ring having been proposed an appex position for my programming abilities.

What mattered the most to me was that EA had trashed the story people had worked on for years and fired me as a seer, and that they effectively sold the game to RMT, which was supposedly the reason we got fired (don't mention the 2 counselors who sued, that had no impact what so ever).

Someone had stolen my game, my passion and my 15 minute of glory (I was roleplaying Bal-Lem and was to become a full fledged seer)...

That was worth more than all this money to me, and still is...

What did I gain by mindlessly trashing this much money ? It's like I burned it... it cleansed my soul from the torment, thats it. Nobody cared much about my virtue and moral principles.

That is how I became the Avatar of legend, this was my final "test", my final temptation.



Still want to talk about risk vs reward ?

I know all about it

 

I do not think we have much to discuss. Our expectations, and in fact, that which we find enjoyable are completely different. I've never played official UO servers, but when it comes to the Felucca/Trammel split... I would remain in Trammel.

 

The thing most people need to understand before splitting our fun into categories is that back in the day we didn't really think about it, the choice was forced on us by true freedom and a sense of fantasy justice.

I wasn't born a pvp player, but sure, I always was the pally type When UO launched I spent 7 months straight in Lord British's castle waiting for... someone/anyone to show up, when it was really quiet at night I would sometimes slip out and go hunt skeletons to improve my makeshift armor in order to appear less pathetic. It almost became my own castle, I would know all its content, books, I even caught a few thieves . I felt at home.

My goal was simple, I wanted to pledge allegiance and train to become part of the kingsguard.

I was 13 years old, classic ambition right ? Of course I had read tolkien and dragonlance and other D&D novels and knew about honor and nobility, but that wasn't me originally, in real life when I went to LARPs I would remove the gamemaster hat and just be myself, a simple squire wishing he was a knight.

My first RPG was Ultima... I simply took the simpler warrior path, and when the net came I was hoping like any other kid that my presence in the MUD or MMO would make a difference, have a chance to be part of history. The ultima system of virtues really influenced me, I started to realize it had a spiritual depth, especially online.

If you could manage to roleplay properly, at the end of the day you felt proud. No manner of bullying at school could even dent me, I was golden.

So when people came and challenged that pride, with meta-gaming, hacks and manipulation... I began to react.

I didn't train to be PvP, it just happened. That is why I mention freedom and justice, it was right there.

Then of course because it wasn't in my nature to provoke conflict in order to get people to respect me, I had to find similar people with whom I could share strength. Those gentle people were the Atlantic Mage Tower, which eventually branched to many other shards. One of the first organised guilds in UO, and of such beauty. There was an ethical code fitting with the lore, books being written, people getting married.

Tifric was a genius writer and actor, playing many roles most people had no idea about. He was my mentor, I began dabbing in magic.

It was a glorious time, because of dangers pks and thiefs... alot of people came to us to enjoy the protection of our dungeon raids The guild grew, I became a leader and needed to defend my new members...

You see what I mean ? I don't think its fun because haha pow pow eat that bolt ! I learned to appreciate the depth it creates, like we learn to appreciate a fancy condiment in time. Because of the nature of the people that beat us, and their hacks and their malice, we became clever and truly we changed lives. All of that without even one single interaction with the devs.

The more evil people outside, the stronger we became, and such it is in all the movies and entertainment we admire. Even our events and tournaments didn't get a single visit from PKs whom well knew we ran them, they were afraid of us and our security was impenetrable.

I simply cannot bring myself to dishonor those memories, while sure those friendship lasted well beyond trammel they share a common theme with UO style open pvp, some elements of which seem to force people to "take sides" here.

There are no sides... I did not become Brainbug by mere coincidence, I always was. Like the avatar always has his own guardian.

But then you'll ask, to guard him/her from what ?

And I'll say :

Now you're talkin !

 

I stayed with my guild in Felucca and Trammel and enjoyed both sides. It was a mood-thing to decide where to act today. Nevertheless the time in Felucca was epic, creepy, sometimes glorious and sometimes devasting. Running a big shop where pks came in to buy, worming around not to be killed, telling a fantastic story how they became wanted, sitting around with pks and playing games - not knowing if you LOL or OOooOOOoo the next minute. Hunting and being hunted was part of the game. It burnt into my memory forever. Others didn't like that - got themself killed every time.

But one way or the other we had something SOTA is missing at the moment: people. Empty public vendors, rarely meeting people in pots or overland. Dunno if they come back when the game is started officially. To be honest - I doubt it. But - there is still hope ...

 

@Greyfox "WE" do not believe these things. YOU believe these things.

I would like everyone to stop saying , "we" for these kinds of posts. Unless, of course, you PM every single forum member and ask them first if they agree.

Also, I completely disagree with the OP, except for the part that SotA has a great community (we do!).

To the dev team, I see what youre doing, I believe you "respect my time," and that you are absolutely iterating towards these very goals. Great job! I love what youre doing! Keep it up!

 

The concern I have about "WE" is the "WE" is shrinking when it should be substantially increasing. So I voiced MY opinion as to why this is occurring. Over the past year population has dropped (-16.6)

Another Steam title called Rust is also in alpha and uses the Unity engine, multiplayer, in development slightly longer than SOTA, and has had a population increase over the past year of (+7605) PSA: Rust is just one example, many others.

The WE is speaking. WE as a community need to listen or face the consequences. WE all want a long term successful game. The changes being made are not demonstrating a positive future. Course corrections are needed BEFORE we hit the iceberg.

http://steamcharts.com/app/326160#1y
(13) Months from Steam Charts (A sample of the player base)

Month Avg. Players Gain % Gain Peak Players
Last 30 Days 132.4 -0.9 -0.68% 235
December 2017 133.3 -6.5 -4.65% 242
November 2017 139.8 +19.1 +15.86% 260
October 2017 120.7 +0.8 +0.68% 226
September 2017 119.8 -6.2 -4.95% 223
August 2017 126.1 -6.6 -4.96% 212
July 2017 132.7 +12.2 +10.12% 231
June 2017 120.5 -17.6 -12.78% 221
May 2017 138.1 -25.6 -15.64% 257
April 2017 163.8 +6.5 +4.15% 299
March 2017 157.2 -4.2 -2.59% 309
February 2017 161.4 +1.3 +0.80% 293
January 2017 160.1 +11.1 +7.42% 302

Rust: http://steamcharts.com/app/252490


Avg. Players Gain % Gain Peak Players
Last 30 Days 36,581.9 +3,607.9 +10.94% 67,410
December 2017 32,974.0 +4,826.8 +17.15% 60,373
November 2017 28,147.2 +2,386.7 +9.27% 57,223
October 2017 25,760.5 +4,165.1 +19.29% 49,984
September 2017 21,595.4 -3,962.6 -15.50% 40,577
August 2017 25,558.0 -4,005.1 -13.55% 43,117
July 2017 29,563.1 +277.7 +0.95% 53,425
June 2017 29,285.4 +3,905.2 +15.39% 48,228
May 2017 25,380.3 -3,208.5 -11.22% 46,948
April 2017 28,588.8 -3,850.2 -11.87% 53,621
March 2017 32,439.0 -3,964.6 -10.89% 66,194
February 2017 36,403.6 +2,403.6 +7.07% 68,103
January 2017 33,999.9 +5,025.0 +17.34% 63,843

 

But when the super-duper mega marketing campign starts we will suddenly get hundreds of thousands or even millions of concurrent players!

Forget about other Early Access games like Life is Feudal, They are Billions or Dark and Light. All other Early Access Games are not representative. Only SotA is because for example only SotA does have a real story in a game you know.

 

It's really simple.
People expected and still expect something like U4-7 or UO.

Solution: LB plus Team write a good story for SP offline.
DS plus Team create something like UO.

And dont mix all up, do experiments and try to make everybody happy with one thing what is full of compromises that dont work.