State of the single player experience?

That's alright. I've seen a few examples of very well done 3D faces, but overall, they're either the type that is extremely detailed, or extremely simplified. The portraits we are talking about however, are supposed to be hand drawn. I've seen pencil sketches and impressionist art - whipped up in mere minutes - that still conveyed all kinds of emotions and a variety of facial expressions, shapes and anatomy, that you just cannot do like that, in 3D, even with days and a team backing you. It's just different. Also, hand drawn pictures just fit a medieval world so much better. Then again, I'm biased. While I adore - for example - new Disney (and other animated) movies, I believe the CGI movies of today have characters that convey a limited set of characteristics, as well as emotion and depth, compared all the ones of the nineties and before that. Some of it does look pretty amazing, but I have yet to see anything that compares on a professional level. Something with heart.

Still, I know the creative tools are getting better. Maybe someday we'll be there; the work is very muc appreciated.

Anyway, I believe most people who are looking for portraits, strongly prefer hand drawn ones, at the very least right here, and now, in this thread. Maybe we can at least agree on that .

enderandrew, there is always room for plenty of discussion. Just as much as there is for the MMO side, in fact. The entire forum is pretty much dedicated to that. Brimming with life. Let's have some variety. So, even if we get repetitive here, it should be fine. It pleases people to talk about games they like. And from time to time, somebody joins and tells us something that we do not know yet. I hope that happens a lot .

Lord_Darkmoon, yeah, indeed. There is this rough outline in my head, just a concept, but I'd like people - also those who are actually involved - spice that conversation up a little.

Moiseyev, that is what many seem to hope for. Some might go with Ultima 4 or 6, but many seem to hope that the game will be as roughly as deep as Ultima 7 had been. And that is not just about the story. It's about really feeling what a lot of these characters are like. The faces/portraits go a looong way. Half of the feel I get for a character is that, the other is dialog. I'm getting the feeling that this is really an underestimated, underappreciated feature. And I have been playing single player RPGs lately that were all about the single player, yet had no portraits, or just a few different onces. Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, and so on. The characters make the game as much as the story does, it's all part of the weave, and it's gotta be strong! So what was hoping for was ... more or less, just the confirmation of portrait presence, or an in-depth interview with the developers - with primary focus on the look and feel of the game compared to the earlier games. But I've got an open mindset. Looking forward to all of it. Hoping.

 

So it will be an MMORPG you play alone???

 

I do too. A great example of this is Telltale's The Walking Dead, they have fantastic characters and expressions. Also the new King's Quest.

Unfortunately our NPC characters don't quite hold up, and as far as I know have no facial animation or expressions(besides talking).

Where are you guys getting this info that our current NPCs are placeholders?

 

They suggested as much when they first put the assets in and people complained about the quality. And for a more particular example, for instance, they said Arabella will have a unique appearance. They've also said we'll eventually be able to customize our vendor appearance; I'm assuming the same system they use for player customization will go to NPCs, even if every NPC appearance isn't crafted from scratch. But we at least know some will be.

 

The devs are constantly mentioning that all the current NPCs are placeholders and haven't been customized yet. We might be misunderstanding their intention, but they have repeatedly said it in forum posts and dev hang outs.

 

I think this is indeed a problem for SotA. The graphical values of the game are not very high due to budgetary reasons. Which is ok. BUT: In the old Ultimas we did get descriptions of what the NPCs were doing while talking. For example grinning menacingly, chewing on the pipe, stroking the beard, grinning etc. This made the texts during the conversations very interesting and gave the NPCs personality.

Richard said that he wants the NPCs in SotA to show those things on the model but I simply cannot see it happening. This would require the game to get AAA graphics if we want to have such detail on facial expression etc. So why not just go the easier road and include 2D portraits and descriptions during conversations?

 

A 3D Portrait with the quality of Telltale adventures like the Walking Dead (or, more fitting the scenario: Game of Thrones) could certainly be quite pleasant.

And yes, absolutely agree, Lord_Darkmoon (is that a reference to Eye of the Beholder 2?). And I would not even say that it's a "cheap" workaround. Descriptions and nice portraits have a place here.

 

I personally think it would be great to get it added in game (either in text dialogue or actual animation) but I agree it probably isn't in our budget currently (and definitely not for Ep1 unless they have a lot hidden that we don't know about).

 

Well, fingers crossed, I guess. I have to be honest with the amount of work they still have left to do, I would be really surprised if the already existing character models are improved. I would, however, expect that they will continue to add more, and hopefully the quality will continue to increase.

Recent creature work makes me more hopeful in this sense.

 

Agreed. It is one of the biggest things I'm holding my breath for. If the world doesn't feel alive, then I don't have high hopes for the game's longevity. I can currently count on 1 hand the characters that actually make me feel the world is alive so far, or that I actually am interested in knowing more of their story.

 

<--- This is why they have to pay more attention to single-player fans and the people on the forums calling out for immersion. Some balance has to be reached between multiplayer/sandbox and immersion people expect from single-player games, and IMO people shouldn't complain every time 'immersion' comes up, because whether its a good word or not, the point is the single-player experience will help the game.

 

Yeah, it killed me hearing Richard basically say role players aren't welcome (avatar's only need apply) when we already have a currently dead world. Its like burning the bridge on players that want to actually make the world feel like somewhere awesome. The problem is, there is a very vocal group that if it doesn't do what they want then it must be bad. I've tried to engage all sides of every discussion (even when I have a strong position against something I still try to see it from their point of view prior to voicing my own), but its getting to the point where I fear in order to please those who are noisy, we are missing out on what makes a great game (let alone a good/passable one).

I very much love the devs we have and their passion and their willingness to keep us up to date, however, they tend to focus on what they enjoy (not a bad thing as such but it can appear like they have tunnel vision). Example of this being the focus on trying to lure/force the non-PvP crowd into PvP zones because the devs think that makes for more fun for people because they enjoy it. It got a major backlash and blew up the threads for quite some time. Their enjoyment of PvP caused them to try very hard to make the PvP side happy, which then caused the PvE side to complain, and so forth until both sides feel they are being ignored. I know this isn't the case as there is only so much the team can accomplish, but it definitely feels like the single player RP is being neglected.

I say that with the huge caveat that I know it is pre-alpha and getting the systems functional MUST take priority over everything else. I just am worried that the team is more interested in getting a non-WoW-WoW-Clone (nodes and timers and tedious grind) ready so they can NOT be an MMO while being an MMO that they are losing out on the fundamentals of what could be a great world. Sadly, it seems that there isn't anyone with a passion for RPGs and world building on the team with how little we hear anything, and how little progress we see being made in that area. In my heart, I know this is not true, and the designers are crafting a beautiful world, but it sure feels that way in regards to the NPCs and "life" of the world (which is a must for a single player games).

Everyone mentions that the underlying system mechanics must be in place before anything can be done single player or MMO side. This is true, but it isn't just combat and decorations that need mechanics. I like that the NPCs are finally getting schedules in the newer cities, and I hope that is indicative of a better mechanic for making the world feel alive soon.

 

@Moiseyev Trueden ,

Well, I wouldn't be so negative; just try to build a clear consensus among players. I personally think tying PvP to the world and making it effect all players brings role-playing to PvP, which makes the experience better for role-playing, if not specifically single-player. I particularly still want guilds to be able to control the control points; and I didn't have much of a problem with unique resources at shardfalls either.

At any rate, I was happy in the last hangout that DarkStarr said "I hope you're all role-players." Because I think that's one of the assumptions behind the game. Although I get the desire for it, I never really liked the idea of a RP tag, because it creates the impression that its not a role-playing game and only some people will be RP.

 

Oh I'm not as completely negative as that post sounds. I personally have always felt that there shouldn't be a PvP vs PvE vs RP distinction. We all want the same thing, which is a great game that we can play for years to come. The last thing I would want would be to lose out on any parts of our community. I agree 100% with you about the desire for people to not tag themselves as one way or the other, but the truth remains that current design choices limit role playing and only some people will actively roleplay, even though it may be counter to the intention of the designers. The problem with DS's statement is it goes counter to LB's statement, and the design choices for the MMO side definitely lean against RP.

This compounds the fact that with a dead feeling world, the focus away from RP characters, we are left grasping for straws about what to expect in the offline side. I have high hopes that when we are mechanics set and starting to implement more polish and breathe life into the world during alpha and beta that my faith in the team will be rewarded, but... until that time I see red flags that really concern me.

 

I think creating 2D portraits on top of creating the 3D models would just be uneccesary work better spent making the 3D models themselves more detailed.

 

@Jamet re: $500 needed to get housing , it's not necessary. You can :

1. Get the Ancestor pledge to get the free row lot and house

2. Get a row lot deed and house on the Add-on store ( the 4 story row house is among the best houses available).

3. Rent a place. A many players have more living space then they actually need and are planning to lease those.

4. As @4Evelost said, just be a vagabond and sack out at the nearest inn.

A lot of doors will be open once the wave of new players come in. This community is one of the best I've ever seen in my decades of gaming.

 

I, for one, am thinking that I got my money's worth in the MMO side of the game even if I actually paid for a great single-player experience.

 

Let me put it this way. I'd go so far to even pay a lot more money than I have already backed for, if I were convinced that the single player part is really what I have been hoping for. That can still happen. This is not me trying to be loud and complain. It's just me being honest. I so ... soooo love the Ultima games that I long for a return to that experience. A fresh one. Other games didn't do that for me. Only the Gothic series got there, and beyond in a few aspects, but Gothic is different, and I don't want to throw around these comparisons wildly. This is a very special universe, to me. Everybody has something that's very special to them. A special movie, a special game, a special book. So yeah -- this is my special game. I need this to be good. So *of course* I back it. What can I say - after the failed Ultima 10 thing by EA, and that other spinoff I don't even remember, this promises to finally be a return to *that* universe, with just the compromise that it's not the same brand. Ultima Online itself just wasn't for me. I'm rambling, aren't I.

 

There is no MMO side, there is the MPO side which allows for multiple players but not at the "massive" stage.

 

My apologies. I'm not really well versed with that terminology. MPO it is, then. Where do they draw the line - one and the other? On screenshots I've seen a lot of people - it looked very busy.