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T15 Ancient dragons

Discussion in 'Release 47 Feedback Forum' started by Cryodacry, Oct 27, 2017.

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  1. Trihugger

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    Challenge is one thing... un-healable 1 shot bullshit is an entirely different matter IMO. Will you kill it? Sure... Was it worth it for anyone that died? Nope, not even close. And as it stands there's going to be deaths.

    There's still that HUMONGOUS "Death Decay Has Ruined The Incentive To Explore" thread in General Discussion... "End Game" cannot simply be these bullshit hardcore activities where death is inevitable. Quite frankly anything guaranteeing death would have to be so insanely lucrative I can't even process what it'd even look like in this game to attract and keep a player base.

    TL;DR... I'm good with deaths when learning stuff... I'm good with deaths for mistakes... Hell I'm even good with deaths for lag... I'm less than amicable towards 1-shot mechanics that no amount of skill/doing the encounter properly is going to circumvent as "good design." The game has to have attraction towards casual players without the punishment of guaranteed death like we currently have in place.
     
  2. Chrystoph Reis

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    Death decay doesn't bother me ( I just turn a lot of skills off ADVL97)... One shot mechanics have been in EVERY MMO I have ever played.... I am honestly sick to death of the cake-walk bosses etc.

    A lot of casual players will take years to reach end-game. Honestly, people there now are not casual. I don't want to be in the 100 levels still fighting the non-challenging crap we do today. In a game without dungeons to conquer, we need challenging enemies. As soon as 1 to 2 people can solo something that is supposed to be an end game boss... it's no longer end game. In a group of 8 people, I started killing dragons around level65, and it was a cakewalk then.

    So if I have nothing challenging to fight, all I do is grind. Nothing... like saying hey guys lets get together and try this again. Like I said... one-shot mechanics have existed in EVERY MMO I have played... so it's nothing new.

    EQ - Death lost exp AND levels to the point where you couldn't cast certain spells etc.
    DDO - some of the most insane dungeon mechanics and tons of one shot mechanics, deleveling etc.

    and each of those I played for years, the other more garbage MMOs that came along never held my interest because they were grind games with no challenge. So yeah... I like a challenge.
     
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  3. Cryodacry

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    What you are referring to are Tank busters. And Tank Busters are in every MMO.... Though they are not one shot mechanics. They are generally 50% HP hits that are followed up with Auto attacks. What we are saying is that 1 Shot mech's are no fun... why would i bother killing these things when i can go to the rise in Friends Online and gain maybe 6 arties in an evening. Then have to bring 4 other people and rotate through the kills to get 1 maybe 2 arties if one even drops. @Sara Dreygon and i were killing the Grumsvald dragon for nearly 2 hours and we did not get a single Arti. that was 1 dragon every 2 min. We were full of Haunches before we got an Arti or Neckbone. None the less Everything should be tankable with proper support. Death because you failed a mechanic is ok.... death for no reason other than RNjesus hates you? not acceptable.
     
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  4. xadoor

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    The gut reaction to threads like this is that people are just upset they died. Honestly, if Port just replies and says they are ok with this being a level check/morale fight then this thread can end. I really think the point is that this dragon is hitting really hard and even current high level toons can't avoid death via strat and that doesn't seem like quality group play. Death should be cause you zigged instead of zagged kinda thing not cause you got unlucky and ate 2 crits in a row. That said every end game battle is gonna have some amount of level check to it and I don't think this thread is complaining about that.

    Where are the zigs and zags that most of us want in endgame? Why not mechanics that prevent 1 or 2 peeps of any level from completing content?
     
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  5. Trihugger

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    I understand where you're coming from, but lets face facts that I highly doubt the original EQ mechanics would be positively received in today's MMO market. Quite frankly I highly doubt the current EQ has the same death touch mechanics it did because that nonsense just isn't fun. I don't even know what DDO is. I'm not sure what ****-in-a-blender games you've been playing/enjoy but very rarely is there an inevitable 1-shot mechanic anymore (and if it is there was, the death penalty was waived). That's not to say messing up a mechanic didn't kill you, but there was always a method to avoid getting inevitably destroyed like we are right now. We literally have NO answer to the current environment.

    A game is not going to succeed that takes "years" to reach endgame. There will be no endgame if your pool of players to pool from need to have been around for years and years. It's a doomed-from-inception notion. If you raided in EQ days then you should be able to appreciate the 6+months of aggravation to key a raid group/re-key a raid group as time progressed. As a raid leader during those days I do NOT want to deal with that nonsense ever again. Maintaining a roster with artificial gates like that is horrific. Plus there are PLENTY of other options for players to turn to and I know personally I wouldn't touch something with a 10ft pole that I had to play for years to even be able to decide if I liked the raiding scene. I'm not arguing for a WoW'esque system either where you level in a week and are raid ready in two, but at the same time the opposite extreme isn't viable today.

    Lastly... Death in a *raid* (or whatever we want to denote as end game group content) needs to be basically "equally" punishing so everyone is basically on the same page. Death is FAR more punishing the higher you specialize skills (or all-the-things skills, whichever) which will inevitably split the community into an "elite" vs "casual" situation. The elite are going to need to be adequately liquored up to even consider going with the casual crowd because they're going to die and death is a much bigger kick to the groin for them. Just because you don't mind death decay doesn't mean that everyone is in that boat. The game as a whole needs a solution to death in group situations because as it stands the disparity is real and is already a real polarizing point of contention. Effectively they've succeeded in making death "horrific" in concept that nobody wants it to happen. Death does matter. I think it matters so much that group play with realistic risk is basically a no-brainer to not bother with. We can argue ad nauseum what the solution reward wise (or that it's even an issue at all) is but this is the reality.

    This game has a tremendous amount of work to do to make grouping viable without even considering loot, respawns, etc. which are equally important.
     
  6. Weins201

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    should have been this hard from the day that one player took out 3 in a row - - - -
     
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  7. Cryodacry

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    i am not saying make them easier.... i am saying make them tank able. IF Port is going to allow such high crits to be done by these NPC's then there needs to be a cooldown on when they can roll a crit agian. The point of this thread is that they are not tankable. You have to be + lvl 100 to even have a chance of tanking these guy's. Even then RNJesus might kill you. There are many options for making them tankable. Lower Crit mod to 1.5x and give them 10% crit. Same difficulty would be achieved but this would allow healers to react. Anouther means would be a Crit resistance mechanic built into the NPC's. Basically saying the first one is 2.5x seccond one is 1.5x if the seccond crit is rolled within 10s. Even then i still think 2.5x crits on all the T10-15 NPC's needs to be dialed down.
     
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  8. Trihugger

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    It's basically the lack of any "skill" based recourse atm. There's literally nothing to be done about this instant gibbing level of damage. These aren't even "tank busters" in the sense you use tank CD's to mitigate (that we don't have). This is just plain ol' crazy impossible to heal normal damage. Just like @Cryodacry says, this is group content but there's no way to ensure the tank lives even if you do everything right. That's bad design.
     
  9. Chrystoph Reis

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    I'm so sad right now! Dungeon's and Dragons Online? That game has been running since 2006. It was going strong until they completely overhauled the build/skill system and lost half their playerbase overnight. Still the community is bigger than this one, albeit over a few servers... which they need to combine already.

    Anyway... to date BEST group dungeons I've EVER seen. Raids are only 20 people if I remember correctly... so manageable. Dungeons scale from casual,normal,elite (you pick on entering). Not a 100% certain this is on EVERY dungeon. But without good healers your tanks were useless etc, and you needed a little bit of everything.

    EQ raids were awesome! I still go do them from time to time. Just the raids. So yeah you may hate and not want, but I miss the gigantic instanceless zones, the boss challenges and even the general zones with Hill Giants faction killing guards etc. Which is why I was loving EQ Next Beta until it got nixed. You may not want... but yeah... I'd do it... only thing I wouldn't want back is the 8 hour spawn camping and messed up looting system. Rest I could take.

    But yeah if you want to see really interesting dungeon mechanics etc... DDO is nice... outdoor zone are eh... and change to build mechanics confusing... but still... I wouldn't mind a modern engine version of it at all. Make IT AND TAKE MY MONEY!
     
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  10. Trihugger

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    I'm right there with you that EQ did (and still does) a lot of things I like. My main problem with the EQ raids were the exorbitant amount of time usually required to even step foot in the zone for one lol. Playing quite a few games since that period I've seen quite a bit of clever scripting in encounters and I've honestly enjoyed that style of boss mechanic much more than "one of you is dead, every *this* so often, good luck!" that many of us likely began the MMO scene with.

    Pantheon is looking interesting on the "EQ Successor" topic. Still really too early to tell but it looks like it plays almost identically to it.
     
  11. Chrystoph Reis

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    Yeah I watched the streams for it... not sure how I feel about it though. I do know my first reaction was though... God these graphics suck! :D
     
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  12. Trihugger

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    Lol truer words never spoken. It does still look extremely rough.
     
  13. Mandalar

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    My humble thougts on the subject:
    8 kills in one play session is FAR from untankable!
    The OP stated there was a group size of 4 players. Why don’t you try it with 8?
    Not all mobs should be soloable.
    I agree the loot should reflect the difficulty (Risk v/s Reward).
    There are other options available to mitigate damage or increase agro. I think potions would be a great way to do this. I also think the potions should have short durations. ( potion of difussion = converts all crit damage by half). Or something along those lines. (Potion of flagrant harrasment = x100% threat) or something along those lines. The ingredients should be hard to aquire and multiple potions should be required per end game boss.
    End game bosses should not be farmable.
    I see multiple players farming trolls solo which Is not a concern. But we should not expect the same results comparing a 11,000 hitpoint troll to a 25,000 hitpoint dragon, = two completely different things.
    Very Respectfully,
    Your humble gamer enthusiast
     
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  14. Trihugger

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    While I agree with you there are some misconceptions that should be brought up. The 4 people he's talking about are 4 people who stand at probably the top few% of adventure level of the playerbase. It's also completely missing the point of the thread that these mobs are not tankable so it doesn't matter how many people you bring when there is no way to realistically heal the incoming damage. Risk/Reward is completely division by zero in this case.

    Potions are a good idea, but I'd like to see them as more of a *flask* function parallel to WoW. Mutually exclusive powerful potion based buffs with some relatively sparse materials that last a while. In WoW the sparse material was the "lotus" that had a different prefix each expansion that was a rare drop from gathering herb nodes. They need to be realistically acquirable though (as in this can't be gated behind other boss mobs for materials) ideally acquired in the process of gathering the other materials.

    I'm not in favor of requiring a raid of people to need to spend 20+ hours gathering materials to have enough potions for a night of boss killing. That's no fun and automatically alienates anyone without that level of time commitment from the game's content.
     
  15. Cryodacry

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    I think you are missing the point..... Untankable meaning that there is no healer in the game that can cast a heal fast enough to heal you after taking a 750 HP hit to save you from the next hit.

    Being able to kill the Dragon 8 times did not mean i didn't die every time of those 8 times. That is un-tankable. If i am going to die everytime i tank a dragon i am just not going to tank a dragon. No one is saying that dragons should be soloable. Where you are getting to correlation that anyone is implying they should be, i don't know.

    I would also love to know how one is supposed to mitigate damage from a dragon that auto attacks for 750 damage ? No amount of damage resistance is going to save you from that kind of melee damage.
     
  16. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Have u trieda shield withhigh level deflect and passives?

    Shields were buffedto be able to block more dmg and Block stacks with avoidance
     
  17. Cryodacry

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    Shields do not block critical hits.
     
  18. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I believe they are supposed to turn a critical hit into a normal hit
     
  19. Mandalar

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    Has anyone tried in a group of 8? Has any one had multiple healers healing them? I feel like some of this feedback is because the mechanics don’t work the way a few people want.
     
  20. ShurTugal

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    The one thing I keep hearing over and over again is "this and that are not tankable" and then the person promptly contradicts themselves by saying "we were only able to kill x number yada yada" not tankable means you don't kill said creature because their damage can't be tanked so clearly this dragon is tankable until such time as you are crit to death. I have personally be in a group that killed it. Its doable and people.... Fyi the game is still not full release yet. There are bound to be some things still to iron out. I personally think its a great game and the devs are doing a fantastic job. :)
     
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