The case for more sophisticated combat

1. I know it's pre-alpha.
2. I know all the systems are not in.
3. The combat system is horrible.
4. Forget about the "deck" part of it. That's not where the problem is.

I believe the combat system should be more sophisticated.

If Fireball and Rend work essentially the same way as a Damage Over Time delivery mechanism, then I don't really see the point in having two skills like this. Sure, one is ranged DOT and one is melee DOT. But that's a very unsophisticated combat system where every skill boils down to DAMAGE MELEE or DAMAGE RANGE, DOT MELEE or DOT RANGE, BUFF MELEE or BUFF RANGE, AOE MELEE or AOE RANGE. That basically sums up the entire system right there.

What I propose is a system with turn-based ELEMENTS that would look more like this...

Someone swings a sword at you and you might have the following options...

1. Parry with your sword. This would give you a defensive move hat is LIKELY to block the attack, but also to give you an opportunity in the next round to counter attack.
2. Block with your sword. This would give you a greater defensive chance to block the attack, but no counter attack. The benefit would be that you then have your off hand free to perform another action the next round because the swords are tied up. Shield Bash?
3. Block with your shield. This would give you the best defensive chance to block the attack, but no counter attack.
4. Block and your shield and attack with your sword. Because you're performing two actions at once this would give you a good defensive chance, while giving you a solid attack.
5. Attack with your sword. This is purely an offensive move and offers no real defensive benefits, you're essentially saying I'm ALL IN, high risk high reward.
6. Block with your shield and feign an attack with your sword. This works a lot like blocking and attacking only it's slightly less defense and no offense. The benefit here is that your opponent might SEE that you look like you're going to attack and either turtle up and defend themselves even more, or try to block and parry or block and attack or block with their sword so they can get off another move. But since you're not really attacking, you could get a "free attack" next round if the timing is right.

This is just off the top of my head, and it only explores two guys with swords and shields. I don't consider this boring at all though. I actually consider it refreshing.

There are several benefits to having a system more like this, but perhaps the greatest benefit would be the decreased demand on the servers and the overall reduction in lag causing events. It's also worth mentioning that this would be a far more competitive system as it relies on player choices and NOT how much DPS you built into your character build.

 

Well the point of Rend and Fireball (and other DoT spells) is that they are different DoTs and they stack. So instead of casting fire arrow after fire arreo, you have to cast fireball, fire arrow, wall of fire and rend or flame fist if you get the chance (or fiery decay and flame bash if you like combos). I f yo ustack 3 or 4 DoTs on your enemy it is quite strong attack. In fact this is probably the only part of combat that requires bit of strategy, though it works mostly between two mages.

I like the idea of turn based RPS system

Block blocks light attack and does no damage, however it is fastest to do.
Heavy attack strikes through block and does a lot of damage, the disadvantage is that it takes time and makes you vulnerable.
Fast attack beats heavy attack and deals small damage.

Or even something more complex like the system you have suggested.

Still we really miss option to block/evade attacks to make them about something more than the DPS race.

 

Net, that would be true if the cards were less random and it mattered what order all of that went in - perhaps. But because the system is about damage per second, you're not rewarded for waiting to stack that combo.

If you and I battle each other and I just cast every damage spell I have available at the time, that's far more efficient and effective against you sitting around waiting to cast some kind of progression across several skills or combos. That's because what you just mentioned "fireball, fire arrow, wall of fire and rend or flame fist" is really just DOT, DOT, AOE, DOT or DOT. See what I'm saying? At the end of the day, if DOT1 does 4 more points of damage on average than DOT2, that's all that really matters here. The order of your casting is irrelevant.

 

Well, it is about cast different DoT IF it is available ELSE cast any other attack spell. Though with stacking of glyphs we can clean the bar enough to have almost everything available (though it gives no time to look at what is happening at screen).

 

Right...but how does what difference does it make if you cast Fireball, Flame Fist, Fire Arrow, and Fire Decay at me. And I cast Fire Arrow, Fire Arrow, Fire Arrow, Fire Arrow at you? It's just you and me swapping damage as fast as we can.

Even if they add all the intended skills and spells they've shown us on paper, this doesn't change. Even if they use 100 combo moves, this doesn't change. It's still ultimately a combat system that is about DPS vs. DPS. If there's a skill that does low DPS, no one is going to use it. If there is a skill that does high DPS, everyone will half to use it to compete.

 

Well if you keep casting fire arrows I get damage from firearrow plus 3 or so dps for e.g. 20 seconds
While you get base damage of those spells plus 10 or so dps for 10 seconds 5 dps for 5 seconds and 3 dps for 5 seconds... so there is a difference. It is not a big difference, but it ca ncount (especially in mage vs mage fight).

 

I agree completely with the Baron; combat is too much WoW related, since abilities only change values (attack lowers enemy life, heals raises player life, defensive skills increases defensive stat, and so on). The beauty of this case is that things suggested could be implemented by also tweaking numbers and by adding skills allowing those mechanics. I'd like to expose it from a more gamey perspective, sorry if i'm intruding. To minimize latency issues, let's think about defensive skills as stances; you acquire some position that prepares you for reacting to a certain situation, and keep it for a certain amount of time (let's say 3 seconds). Stances should increase focus cost for skills while they're untriggered, since fighting while staying defensive is harder. That way, keeping a defensive position while attacking I'd use the same numbers in the OP to refer to the situations exposed.

1. You ready your weapon to deflect your enemy attack and react fast to that. If the enemy hits you while in parrying stance and you deflect the attack successfully (chance) you give him an extra, out of Global Cooldown (GCD) attack.
2. You ready your weapon to absorb your enemy attack. If the enemy hits you while in blocking stance there's a % chande of the attack having no effect, but your weapon will take some additional damage. The free off hand factor is a bit tricky, too many factors to consider to expose it briefly.
3. You put your shield between your enemy and you. If you're attacked while in that stance, the attack doesn't have any effect. Shield block stance don't make your skills cost more focus, since they're designed to do that (in a related topic, allowing shields to nullify an attack with a 100% chance should be compensated by lowering the attack value of the player by a factor related with the weight of the shield; i think it's not easy to fight with a metal sheet attached to your arm).
4. Counter could be a combo between 3 and thrust. After blocking you release an out of GCD attack.
5. Nothing to say here!
6. A stance that reduces damage suffered and increases the GCD of the enemy (you take him out of balance / force him to regain his position with your feint).

To be honest, value changing oriented combat is not much of a problem to me, i could get to enjoy it. It just bugs me that having the deck system and making combat into a game of options, the options are only damage, damage + something, damage + something else, heal, increase defense-but-don't-use-it-because-you-can-use-a-damage-skill. Skills should matter, and at the moment most of them don't.

 

But that's exactly what I'm saying, Net. It's just DOT and DPS. So in this example we should all hope to have enough fire arrows so we can win? That's a stupid system.

Why is everyone so in love with DPS? It's like the dumbest part of this game. Am I seriously the only person that thinks DPS and DOT and AOE are terms that we shouldn't even be using to design this game? I really don't get it. Sometimes it feels like I'm on this island of insanity when I start having these discussions. This combat system is LITERALLY just two people trying to do the most damage as fast as they can...it doesn't matter what the skills or spells are called, they're all the same.

Here's how I see these PVP battles currently...

NET casts DOT on Drocis.
Drocis casts DOT on NET.
NET casts ROOT on Drocis.
Drocis casts DOT on NET.
NET casts HEAL on NET.
Drocis casts DOT on NET.
NET dies because he didn't cast enough damage spells faster than Drocis did.

The developers of this game are so incredibly smart and have really done a great job. But for some reason it's like they created the combat system with the help of a brain dead rabid monkey.

Sorry for the rant, Net. I'm just a little frustrated because what seems so clear to me often seems so misunderstood, misinterpreted, or outright ignored by others.

 

Well yes, it is just DPS, but the gameplay with DoTs is bit more complex than with other damage/healing abilities.

It is about casting different DoT whenever you have chance unlike other spells, where it is just about using whatever glyph that does msot damage. I mean Flame Fist is not as strong as Fire Arrow, however it is better to cast it after Fire Arrow than another Fire Arrow. It is not like Death Ray/Searing Ray/Obsidian Arrow...

Yes it is still about DPS, but it is the only part of it that is not about mashing the first (attack) glyph you see. (Well there is also Root and Disable shot, which do something different than damage/heal). And I have not mentioned Purify, it is great spell for removing DoTs and timing of its use is quite important (though again it works only in mage vs mage fights).

 

NET casts DOT on Drocis.
Drocis casts DOT on NET.
NET casts PURIFY on NET.
Drocis casts DOT on NET.
NET casts HEAL on NET.
Drocis casts DOT on NET.
NET dies because he didn't cast enough damage spells faster than Drocis did.

There's no way around any of this...you just do more damage than your opponent.

They are going to introduce COVER in R12. Ok great...nothing has changed. It's still just about damage. Now you just want to be under cover or angle yourself so your opponent is not under cover. At the end of the day COVER is just a modifier to DPS. I'm not saying I don't think cover is cool and we shouldn't have it. I love the idea of having cover. But it doesn't fix any of this. The game at its core is just DPS wars. No combination of skills and spells are going to change that.

 

Redfish casts PEACE on Drocis and NET.

 

Well, I have to disagree with the last bit, because Purify can save you from tons of damage and healing can heal (if it is not interrupted) more damage than spells can cause. It is about DPS, but healing and purrify can be advantageous at times. We should have a duel It is about DPS, but luckily it is not just about spamming the same (or any) spell randomly.

EDIT: I have not seen redfish's post.