Dismiss Notice
This Section is READ ONLY - All Posts Are Archived

The Dragon is soloable in Grumvald.

Discussion in 'Release 28 Feedback Forum' started by Duke William of Serenite, Apr 4, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sir Cabirus

    Sir Cabirus Avatar

    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    4,496
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Stygian Abyss
    This thread makes me sad. I wish we could respect different tastes and preferences. Sometimes it's very hard to be a single player / story based fan in this forum :( I wonder why Portalarium doesn't make a statement that they still follow the Kickstarter promises and that the development of this game isn't community driven.

    Back to the OP - it shouldn't be too complicated to make bosses scalable. An easy solution for all camps.
     
  2. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,678
    Trophy Points:
    153
    What I would want to know is why does the Kickstarter annoucement read as if SotA was planned as a different game and why do the first videos that were released look like a different game - namely a game with much more focus on SP and story?
     
  3. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    At first i must say i'm sorry, i'm not anyone to diminish your concerns about the single player elements... i think i've been around long enough for you to know i speak truthfully when i say i share lots of those concerns with you, maybe with a bit different perspective. The thing is that arguing something "because of single player" that's not directly related with single player feels a bit unconstructive, and start discussions about MMO vs SPO that actually nobody wants, but passion driven players can't avoid. Same thing can be said about "because of MMO" and "because of PVP". Sorry again for bursting out.

    Those two are, of course, feasible (the first quote thanks to the second), but i did my previous suggestions about dragons and other bosses being killables solo only by high geared high skilled characters handled by high skilled players in this post thinking about the two modes. Mostly because I really find it to be more epic if there are enemies that aren't safe kills by the book. I haven't played Skyrims *ducks* because i got bored with Oblivion *takes cover* but i actually cleared Morrowind *take a peek to see if the mob calmed down*. I'm a very methodic person, and i tend to clear every quest that gets on my way. In Oblivion, before leaving the second town of the main plot, i was able to kill everything i faced. Thus one day i stopped playing and never opened it again. Something similar happened with the Witcher 3. Incredible game, amazing graphics, thrilling story (cleared the other two before) but as i get the handle of the game and level high enough to get over the monsters of the zone i'm in, i got bored. And there it is, waiting for me to get over the boredom of being able to kill everything

    Is it really the point of a game to be able to clear everything? doesn't that break your immersion? because it does break mine :( I'd like to state that some of us are here to enjoy a Multiplayer game with lots of typical single player elements to make our experience more enjoyable. I'm one of those, and that's why when things like that come out i'd like to hear more about things that works out for both modes, because that's what can make this game truly awesome.

    /me waves away while whistling imagine... still no popcorn :(
    **Edited for clarification.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
    Moonshadow and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  4. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,271
    Likes Received:
    6,624
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Dragon Age Origins series does dragons well. Against Team based combat (single player) but some really good lessons there.

    I played the third one for about 60 hours before I got bored with it's repetitiveness.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS likes this.
  5. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,678
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Actually I didn't want to write in this thread anymore as I think that it leads to nothing. MMO players want their group content, SP player want their solo content.

    But you are saying the killing of the dragon is not directly related to single player. But I think it is. If there is a monster in single player mode then there is a reason for it to be there. So when I meet a dragon that is attacking me there should be a way to kill it - no matter the mode I am playing in. If the dragon is not killable then there should be a reason for this - a story related reason. Not "because he is too tough" as this would lead to me wanting to get better so that I can defeat it. But if this would not be possible then I would think that it is either a bug or a very cheap way to keep SP players away from some content (which they basically paid for). So if there would be a story reason why I can't kill the dragon, then this would be something completely different. But him being nothing more than an enemy you can encounter and being "invulnerable" would be cheap.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  6. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Funny that you say that quoting a post where i said that me, as an MMO players want to have single player elements as well. That includes solo content, in fact i currently spend alone most of my time so go figure... But i see your point, that happens because when somebody says "this should be this way because of SP" or "we should work this that way because of PVP" they're not reasoning but pushing their personal preferences into a game design process which should be objective. And if you're designing a game that's both a Single Player and Multiplayer the goal is designing content available for both modes at once, because that's what's optimal in terms of work vs content developed. And it doesn't matter how focused some are in making those two different things, because they share mechanics. Sure SP needs some stuff that MMo don't and vice versa, but that doesn't justify specific design decisions for each mode.
    I'm not. I'm saying that soloing a dragon in a game where you have companions and solo a dragon in a game where you have friends it's at the same level: an epic feat. We could get valuable feedback for both play modes from this ocurrence, instead of arguing about an aspect of the event from a perspective more related with our personal preferences.
    Yes, dragons should have a reason to exist.
    No, dragons existing doesn't directly imply that you should be able to kill them. Running from a dragon is as much as a story as killing it (happens at the start of the witcher 3 if i recall) and many games have unkillable monsters that even more iconic because of that (pyramidhead, off the top mine).
    Interesting, since dragons being though can be a story related reason, since in this world dragons are big and dangerous creatures. Nonetheless i think i get what you mean; something like requiring the essence orb in Neverwinter nights to bring Klauth down. For me that's interesting as part of the story, but doesn't justify anything. If to kill some non story related enemy (like the dragon is, in this case) i need to always do something first, why i'm not able to kill it directly? saves time :p

    What i don't like is how this keep swinging between "i should be able to kill it or not" and that's all. As i said before, there's the option of making an enemy that's killable in game terms but require you to be top geared, top leveled, and to have an extreme level of finesse while playing or a deep understanding of the game mechanics, or both. Good examples of this is Cerberus fight in God of War III choosing chaos difficulty mode (it's not an RPG so it's not "optional", just a byproduct of the difficulty level and the way the fight is laid out) and the more than famous Weapons from Final Fantasy VII. I agree with you that content should be available for everyone, but why not making it a challenge? why not look exactly for
    That's giving you a long term objective and a reason to keep playing until you clear the story. On the other hand, if you become teh dragonslayer just because you're intended to there's no challenge at all.

    To sum it up, it's not as if there are not examples in the single player world of monsters that are optional and incredibly hard to kill, and it's not as if that strategy couldn't work in both SP and MP modes. So why don't we put aside the SP vs MP thing since it's not actually related here and just keep discussing about behaviors and mechanics that could make this fight challenging, interesting, and thrilling for both modes? I'd bet that leads to somewhere :p
     
    Gix, Fister Magee and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  7. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,204
    Likes Received:
    4,017
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Yeah, I have no idea why saying "killing a dragon should be a group effort" automatically translates to "we don't want solo content".

    @Lord_Darkmoon The conversation is valid but you got to stop with the "MMO players this, solo players that" mindset; it's the only reason why it's going nowhere. If we're being invaded by an alien army, we both have a common goal... but I'll still try to stop you if you think that our only option is to nuke our planet. Eh?

    It kind of took the "We won't consider it full-featured (beta) until we implement everything that we promised in our kickstarter" as a given...
     
    Lord_Darkmoon and KuBaTRiZeS like this.
  8. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,678
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I think that we agree that we want a great game, no matter if we play it solo or in a group, online or offline :)
     
  9. Alcedes

    Alcedes Avatar

    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    767
    Trophy Points:
    43
    im not reading this entire thread to find out if anyone has pointed it out...but the dragon is NOT bugged. it is incomplete. ALL The bosses are operating under generic "placeholder" AI scripts.
     
    Fister Magee and KuBaTRiZeS like this.
  10. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    That's a neat point of view! At some point the discussion touched tangentially the possibility of add different behaviors to the dragon to make the fight interesting... Thinking about it as incomplete makes more sense. This is my extract of that part
    And i quote myself because i'm my nÂș1 fan :D
     
    Katrina Bekers and Fister Magee like this.
  11. Alcedes

    Alcedes Avatar

    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    767
    Trophy Points:
    43
    dont underestimate this dev team. especially @Chris. the AI we are seeing for bosses now is nothing more than generic AI scripts that uses their various skills for bug testing. each of these bosses (Troll, Phoenix, Scorpion, Dragon, Daemon, etc..) will each have AI scripts that let them make intelligent decisions to adjust to what we are doing.

    For example, in the fight we saw above, the dragon took flight and started hitting Jobe with fire blasts. Currently this happens at a predetermined point in the battle. This is simply for testing purposes. Making sure he does take flight and seeing how it affects combat. You can pretty much bank that after the REAL AI scripts replace these placeholders, if a player is kiting the dragon as Jobe did, the dragon will likely take flight and match the player in ranged combat or adopt some other "anti kite me" behavior to counter the technique. And i think we all know how that would have turned out.

    We are not seeing the TRUE behavior and intelligence/adaptability of the "boss" monsters yet. But we will. Perhaps the scripts are not yet done..or perhaps, the more likely i suspect, is that the scripts ARE done and they just dont want us to see the script in action until after pre-release is done.

    So remember; The bosses are not bugged. They are simply incomplete.
     
    Katrina Bekers and KuBaTRiZeS like this.
  12. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Oh yeah that's the kind of things we NEED for PVE! Can't wait to get some of that. Just having that part i quoted from you could work great into increasing the mob difficulty, requiring player to have a balanced party or, if he wants to try a solo kill, requiring even different decks to kill him! To tell the truth... always kiting melees while slowing/stunning them and getting close to rangeds so they flee from me while i slow/stun them down gets dull very quickly.

    Thanks again for chiming in :D I do have high hopes for all this but being in the dark all we have left is speculation ;) Because of the way random combat works out i keep waiting to get some "Damn if that skill just popped in i could've saved my ass!" or "hm to fight those enemies i should change to this deck with this skills if not i'm a dead man"... you get it. Still, lot of work and balance (and more than balance) to be done. So i'll wait and see :p
     
  13. Alcedes

    Alcedes Avatar

    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    767
    Trophy Points:
    43
    well, im not sure if they have that kind of AI planned for all mobs. But i know it is planned for "boss" difficulty creatures.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS likes this.
  14. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Yeah sorry i tend to thing big... but what's done for something may be done for everything :D Not taking anything for granted, just keeping hopes high! I do think that at the very least they should make ranged enemies to behave differently if they're figthing against a ranged player because the way they behave now it's highly exploitable (also fun, but exploitable comes first).

    I'm here because everything here has a lot of potential, and everytime i learn some of that potential is going to be fulfilled in a way i feel incredibly happy. I don't care the speed, as long as i like how it looks at the end :D
     
  15. ThurisazSheol

    ThurisazSheol Avatar

    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    4,017
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    The Drowned Mountains
    i like how it IS soloable...but i think oh so much more SHOULD be, here..

    i think the more people involved, the more and differing tactics the dragon uses, some skills shouldn't even be used at all if solo or in small groups. i think it should always scale to "damned hard" no matter how many folks are plinking away at its hide.

    i think that way BECAUSE there is solo singleplayer modes for the game. if the bigger, badder, mobs are more scalable this way, more fun will be had everywhere.
     
  16. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Bosses being defeatable in SP was previously discussed and enemies that scale according the size of the party sounds like something logical. But there's someting to take in consideration; in Single player you won't be alone! you'll have companions to help you fight the dragon and the rest of the bosses.

    That's why i keep thinking that even when scaling is doable, bosses should be kept as bosses in both modes, so defeating them is a challenge in both modes, and work on companions IA to make them worthy of them name. If that's the case, you have the same thing in both modes
    1. Story content that you'll be able to enjoy and clear.
    2. More challenging and optional content, balanced to be cleared with your mates (MP) or your companions (SP), like some dungeons i remember in U7.
    3. The ultimate challenge of getting those beasts alone, post it on Youtube and be famous!
    And personally i won't mind if some of the hardest bosses of MP are available in SP in the form of ULTIMATE ENEMY FRONTIER KILL ME WITH YOUR COMPANIONS IF YOU'RE WORTHY OF BEING CALLED AN AVATAR like the Weapons in Final fantasy VII. After all that's more content, right?
     
  17. ThurisazSheol

    ThurisazSheol Avatar

    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    4,017
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    The Drowned Mountains
    i thought about that too, then realized that i havn't yet found a game that allows the AI, scripting, and logic, be strong enough for the companions to do anything but bolster the DPS fest, which isn't fun at all. i hope this game defies that logic and builds the tech for this level of badassery...but i just don't see it happening anytime soon. :(

    on the other hand, if these folks do what i hope for, i'm with you 80%.. the other 20 is hoping for scaling still, when the groups get larger...so if we get 100 people fighting it, it becomes a worldboss for the fight.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS likes this.
  18. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Yeah the problem of including SP here is that we can't wait as much as we want since the game should be delivered sooner than being able to do all that. So definitely i can see some scaling coming... but allow me to keep dreaming a bit :D
    I'd like to see the combat system to shift slowly to something where player actions matter more. Not necessarily a twitchy thing where you need to do something faster... With the behaviors mentioned above combat could be shifting gradually towards a more strategic approach where knowing your enemy moves and planning beforehand is vital. That kind of combat is much more organic, more suitable to the kind of experience I (and some others) want here, and it allows you to balance it in a way that even if you're in a big party of untrained and unskilled players you'll get beaten, no matter how powerful you are.

    That's why i'm always around with "no levels!" and "reduce health pools!" and "no innates!" (my last addition!), because i think it could be engaging, original, and definitely better than DPSFest.

    But for now i'll enjoy what we have... and probably wait for some boss scaling in the meantime U^^. Things can always be done right later! for now we should focus in making them work... and make them fun.
     
    ThurisazSheol likes this.
  19. ThurisazSheol

    ThurisazSheol Avatar

    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    4,017
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    The Drowned Mountains
    me to...me too. fortunately as this game will always be under development (until it is not), they can add this type of thing at any time. not that they'll have free time, per se, but the schedule is a touch more bendy after the game goes gold, and i've seen some fairly awesomesauce stuff happen thataways.

    considered just quoting your first sentance here, but it all goes together with my hopes perfectly - well... i do like innates if done right, but it should never be a crutch.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS likes this.
  20. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    3,400
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    That's the thing, i consider most of them are a crutch set over a wheelchair. Something i can't exactly grasp why we are keeping... It's something i've been scratching my head over this whole Q while thinking in "the first steps" required to start walking towards the kind of combat that i want. That's why i started this thread (yea shameless plug ou yea) but as usually happens when discussing core mechanics it's already going down. If you have an opinion in the subject i'd appreciate if you could drop it there so we can talk further about it!
     
    ThurisazSheol likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.