The Grind

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting you were scripting, I was asking because I didn't know. It sounds like the gap between solo and party is huge though.

Also, I know you're an excellent tester and have contributed a lot to the game on that level and others.

 

The gap between solo and the right party is sizable.

 

Regarding the GM training, I think that's a good feature, but you didn't have anyone GM training you. So I don't think that's the difference between hours played and knowing how best to min/max the system.

 

I think the difference is two fold...

1: Themo's done it before so he got the extra experience bonus for doing it again (is that still in the game?)
2: Themo's done it before so he's perfected doing it again

In the past I haven't seen you get this high in level @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos so I'm guessing that some of this is new. When I went with Themo he didn't just clear a zone... he cleared a zone while staying in combat 90% of the time. His time between pulls is extremely low. He knows where the mobs are going to be and he knows how long it takes him to kill them and he knows when he's not getting optimal experience and it's time to swap zones. That's not something an average player will ever know. That only can be gained from MANY characters or from alpha/beta testing a product. That's my two cents.

I think Themo is used to optimizing the task of leveling from this and other games he's played and he's systematically disseminating leveling. After he grinds he gets his group up with his party benefit and then they get others up with party benefit. Trickle down effect is something to be really happy to see in the game because now Themo can help others where not six months ago he was hurting them lol *YAY SKILL BASED* #snickers. (sorry @Themo Lock I had to plug the skills based in there even though it isn't really relevant)

 

Yes, there's a exp modifier still in the game, and I get to about 40 before it runs out on me. That doesn't explain why you guys get to level 40 in 5 hours and I get there about 3 weeks later.

I'll conceed that I will never know (or care) where mobs spawn or when the optimal time is to grind X or grind Y. I'm not a powergamer. I'm a roleplayer that loves RP.

The OP is about the fact that I can't RP or PVP without doing serious grinding. So regardless of how much better Themo or you or anyone else is at power grinding, that's missing the point. I can't have fun without doing nonsense that I hate. That's a serious problem that I doubt is local to just me.

Again, I'd love for Chris to reveal the stats from R23 to see just how many people got to level 70, level 40, or somewhere else (and how many hours they played on average). Then I'd love to see who was flagged pvp. I'm guessing it wasn't the level 40 people.

 

Seems like the issue is that you want to be competitive and Themo is beating you. You can pvp and rp without being the first guy to level 40 ... you can do it getting there 3 weeks after the first guy.

Themo beat me too... he's an op Avatar but I love him anyway.

 

Themo is not the only person beating me in pvp. Anyone higher level than me will beat me in pvp. It's been this way since R9.

I'm not competitive because to be competitive you have to spend an insane amount of time leveling. Perhaps I'm a horrible PVP player, but right now with this system I'll never know because I'm not afforded the opportunity to see how good I can be...that feature is left for people with more time on their hands.

 

It's never me...it's lag. Dumb laggy servers.

I hear what you are saying though, Drocis and agree. PVP cannot just be about level. It needs to be fun very quickly or people who join the game down the road are gonna leave just as quickly as they come if their desire was PVP.

PVP should be a different system than PVE. One huge fail in all the games I've played has been trying to balance PVP at the detriment of PVE and then swinging it back such that PVE is too easy and PVP is almost balanced. Another tweak here and there and both are out of whack.

Need to be two different systems - use same skills but things are manipulated by the system to buff or debuff players who are squaring off to give them a fighting chance.

 

This line deserves further attention. What does this have to do with the OP?

Why is it that as soon as these debates come up, the conversation always seems to go back to my personal motivation or skill? What's that have to do with anything? Either you like the system the way it is where grinding out levels makes you better in pvp, or you don't and you'd like to see a change.

Leave your opinions about me out of it. I have all kinds of opinions about people on the forums, but I don't express them. I focus on the ideas and if they're good or bad. I focus on giving feedback to make the game better.

 

For arguments sake BDF, lets say that the game implements a level playing field for PVP (lets just say they put a cap of lvl 20 on individual skills used).

How will you then deal with the situation that you will likely be then griefed by being ganked in 2 on 1, 3 on 1, 4 on 1 etc. PVP situations after that?

What you want, is in my opinion, unobtainable.

 

I wonder, where has anyone actually proposed a hard level cap as a solution? As far as I know, it has been been mentioned in some contexts discussing game mechanics, but not as a solution. Please provide a correction if I'm wrong.

 

I think there are ways to obtain balance. For one, control points could have a 1 v 1 path that ensured there would be an even fight. There's all kinds of things that we could do to help in the open pvp areas though (like my POT). I think NPC guards being super powerful would be a first step.

 

I think you're confused about what I said because I was short in my statement.

I didn't mean Themo is beating you as "He beat you to death". I meant Themo is beating you as "He has beat you to level 40 in the race to level"

This has everything to do with the OP and your desire to see the length of time it takes to level removed. I personally want pre-alpha to be easier but not the end game. Hope that helps.

 

Our goal should be to make the game fun for everyone. If we have a pvp game that is only fun for people that grind for months to become "competitive" then we fail at our goal. That's the point of the OP.

There shouldn't be a "race to level".

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos, since these are rather complex matters, and seem to cause misunderstandings to no end, in an attempt to understand this all I'm trying to condense your main points into a single "elevator speech" like paragraph, right below. Could you please elaborate and explain, where I have understood your main points correctly, where I have misunderstood them, and if I have missed something essential / relevant? I think it would help me and others in understanding and discussing the actual points. Thanks!

What you want is not to eliminate the level difference, but to have it matter less than it does now. I do not personally do PvP (my personal reasons are irrelevant in this specific context even though they are partly related to the OP) but what I have understood from various descriptions is that say a level 30 character would barely be able scratch the skin of a level 70 character, and even 10 such low level characters would probably stand no chance in a 10 to 1 fight. This would need to be changed so that even a lower level character would stand at least some chance against a higher level player, however small, and this chance would largely depend on the actual skill of the player(s). And the primary ways to achieve this would be to adjust game mechanics from current "DPS war" approach by introducing counters to most actions (their use would be largely dependent on skill), perhaps adjusting criticals to have some more fundamental effect, and introducing various skill dependent elements like cover?

 

Yes, you understand me correctly.

Btw, here's a good example of what going up against a high level character is like:

This was done several releases ago, and a lot has changed. For one pvp levels are no longer considered during hit calculations (this video may be a big reason why) but because of the innates high level characters have, it's essentially still the same thing. There's a lot less "misses" and a lot more hits, but the person you're fighting has 500 more hit points than you do so it's easy math.

 

These solutions you suggest only create problems for many other players. In an online game with group play, guilds, teamwork, why would you want to ruin the game for so many players by limiting control points to a 1 on 1 situation?

Regarding "super powerful NPC guards", you are now wanting to shift the game meta away from a player controlled meta, to a game code and NPC meta, and I ask you, how does this help the game from a role playing perspective? In fact, it completely destroys it.

These solutions you suggest may be ideas that help your personal vision for the game, however, they would ruin the game for what I would safely and comfortably assume would be the majority of the playerbase.

 

I just want to interject here. This game was billed as a single player RPG that could be played with friends online. It was not billed as an MMO or a group needed game. Things do need to be balanced for the Single Player Online aspect.

 

What I would suggest, and I know people are going to not like what I say, is that we need level instanced battlegrounds. I am suggesting something along the lines of WoW instanced battlegrounds. Right now you are saying "NO! no instanced battlegrounds!" But hear me out. It would be like a raid format. It would allow control points and such to be evenly matched with even levels. Also shardfalls would be the same way. Match opponents by level and by numbers of players. 10 vs 10. 20 vs 20 or whatever. These instances are already in game. Every shardfall is an instance. Every scene is an instance. The probability of pve people joining in these would be greater than just waiting to be ganked by some large guild controlling them. Even numbers and levels promote a healthy battlefield. It could still have the rare resources and rare crafting tables. But the incentive and willingness to enter will be greater.

 

First, @Kaliban, manners please. I'm referring to (these are directly copy-pasted)

There is absolutely no need for any of this "you this, you that, he said she said" stuff, and it can well be interpreted to be against the forum rules. Argue with the facts, not with the people. Thank you.

I would have some questions, but I'm going to edit personal confrontational stuff away from the following quotes (e.g. replacing with "--" or blue text, if only to demonstrate that it is not that difficult.

What other solutions do you refer to?

How does it completely destroy the role playing perspective?

How exactly would they ruin the game? What kind profile does the "majority of the playerbase" have?