The major problems with the combat system.

i was just playing around with skills/ decks.

it's obvious that focussing on less schools and supporting that at best with gear is very important to pvp, but i also see the problem in attunement and resistance, not that much in the opportunity to toggle decks and have more option, for a tournemant of course, if you know what your opponent is doing you have all the choices to pick a counter build, but situational a specialized deck with proper gear, maybe only 1 or 2 magic schools schould be a good choice.
I also see the biggest problem in resistancies and for example HP/ Focus, it takes very long to get to high HP and Focus imo.

good discussion!

 

Knight's Grace and Smelling Salts.

Purify and Cure Poison potions.

 

Thanks for the response.

While I agree the game is better, is more balanced, and continues to improve month to month. This doesn't change that an Avatar is an Avatar is an Avatar.

In fact your argument below about the difference between players at level 80 and level 100 to 110 kind of proves my point. There are level 80 Avatars, and then there are level 100 and level 110 Avatars, but they're still Avatars. It's a single class and it's up to each player to decide what they want to put their XP into and what they want their deck to look like, but there's very little between what makes Atos or Drocis Fondorlatos different from a design perspective. The only difference between our two characters is that my preferences of robes, a staff, and magic are based on my roleplaying backstory. While this provides an enormous amount of flexibility for people that don't care about backstory or roleplaying, it crushes my individual soul knowing that whatever cool build or character design I come up with, players with enough XP can duplicate that in a heart beat. That's the problem. Hybrid's in a race to the bottom.

I'm hoping we get more specialization.

My argument is that we used to have a perfectly viable pure deck system and now we have to be a hybrid because some people hated the deck system. When you created the HEAT system my expectation was that it would not ruin the deck system. The people that like the HEAT system got their way and now everyone that liked the Deck system is going to be forced to adapt to at least a hybrid of their play style? I get that it's going to be hard to balance, but just saying "there, live with it" is not really cool. The Deck system was fine the way it was. The HEAT system ruined it.

I could've called out a lot more but didn't know who would read this and who would ignore it. The reason I called out all of Earth and Water magic was because there are no clear counter skills or spells (like Douse) that effectively deal with spells from these schools. Yes, there are tactics. Dodge is helpful against all elemental attacks that require a chance to hit (like fire, ice, and obsidian arrow), but there's nothing specific that counters those types of attacks. For most players that might not be a huge deal because they are either running around with high avoidance or high dodge modifiers (or both) but I can say from experience that it's a significant impact to who wins and who loses.

The pool hall is a bad example in all ways but one. Players aren't lining up to get into the pool hall so they can lose their money. They want a legit chance to win. So if you're building a game where you want lots of empty pool hall tables, keep allowing the min/maxing power gamers who have too much time on their hands to dominate.

I'm not saying there can't be rewards for people that play a lot. I'm not saying that the game shouldn't be skillful and require practice (I wish that were more true). I'm only saying that we have a pocket of outliers that are so far away from the rest of the pack they're hurting the game. You can't keep making content for them, and they make the game hard to balance.

No one wants to play Vince for money after this...

We need to get rid of all these Vince's.

Again, I totally agree with you that people will always complain. But when it comes to balancing things, I'm not one of them. If you take away power because it makes the game more balanced, I'm all for that.

And I defend the RNG all the time, because I understand how statistics work.

I can see a lot of arguments in this very thread that are based on not changing anything, balance be damned. Those the arguments I would not listen to.

Awesome.

 

Once you get tripped, you're down on the ground. Nothing counters that.

There are direct damage poisons that immediately give you damage. If you use purify or cure poison that doesn't heal the damage.


There's a practical assessment you have to perform here. If it doesn't STOP something from being positive for your opponent, it's not a counter.

 

Dont forget that these guys also have 120 skill in some of their primarily used skills. I agree with this. However, you'll note that the people who have these kinda of skills (and dominate PvP) are the first to tell you that its not the skills... its their elite PvP'ness and they will reference 2 people on the server in their 90's who can beat them at times. To me, them saying that just proves the 98% point. "ya, I can kill 500 people but Joe and Jack can beat me".

Just looking at my own skill right now at adv lvl 99. Skills Im missing that would help a lot:

hard headed: 80 (If I had 100 I would be 5% more stun resist)
endurance: 80 (if I had 100 I would have 2.5 more str)
healthy 80 (if I had 100 I would have 20 more base skill)
train dex: 90 (if I had 100 I would have 5 more dex)
armor weak points: 80 (if I had 100 I would have +1.3% crit
poison wep: 60 (if I had 100 I would have much longer period)
heightened awareness: 80 (if I had 100 I would have 20 more focus)
Train Int: 92 (if I had 100 I would have 4 more int)
Inner calm: 80 (100 has +2.5% less focus cost
Follow Through: 85 (if I had 100 I would have like 2.5% less fizzle chance
Tranqulity 80: If I had 100 I would have +2 interupt tollerance

etc...etc...etc... I have dozens more skills like that.

 

zerg fest requires a population

 

@2112Starman Couldn't agree more about crafting. Making it take insane amounts of real time to complete in-game tasks that have no risk isn't anything but bad game design. It's stupid that you've got to do mindless tasks instead of, you know, having fun.

All of it needs to go away, and now. Want to make crafting take up large amounts of time? No problem. Add risk and mechanics other than "stand still and click for hours".

 

It's not going to be anything meaningful in PVP ever. PVP will be an afterthought tacked onto an already long list of other basic stuff that's just not there yet in spite of progression starting over a year ago.

 

Well said OP.

 

If I let your 8 year old daughter play my character, and she fought a level 80-90 good pvper, she would get crushed. I am the top level player, and yet I still lose, but there is no convincing some people of this FACT. Most of the good pvpers are good pvpers because they are good players, they practice, they lose, they win, but always getting better. Why am I even listening to someone who does not pvp at all about the balance of pvp? That's is like going to a web designer and asking them to fix my car.

 

is it a nice car?

 

I don't have a car, I'm a minimalist.

 

I got a web designer that can fix that

 

Agree on all points with BDF.

Also, IMO crits need a nerf in pvp, and spells need more interrupt.

 

Where in lie the problem...I have to be a mage to survive as a swashbuckler. The only sphere I might want is moon since it would go in line how I would like to play, but I have to build all the other magic skills just to survive. It counter intutitive. I should be working on dodge, acrobatics, etc...but those are what seems to get nerfed.

 

The broken basic CC-Resistance should handle it, if Chris gets it done the next 2 years. Also you have Knights Grace to counter it.

 

Yeah, except when I use smelling salts then I immediately stand up again and all glyphs are available once more.

 

Agreed pvp has a great deal to do with learning how to fight player types. Levels are not everything, but down help a great deal.

The potions that give % magic damage reduction are a good step forward. However the NEED for everyone to skill magic trees not ideal. This has come up a number of times in pvp talks. I would like to think all magic trees had a two passive skill for damage reduction of that type. First for PVE and the second for PVP. These could be used as the way to lessen the damage from other players without leveling the whole tree. While say it only levels from player damage done to you. If you want to good at fighting mage type X. You are going to have to fight them over and over again. This could also be use on melee weapons types in the tactics tree.

 

Really a good discussion.

My concern @Chris is this.

Sure the players who play the most are the players with the most knowledge about how things work and the ones with the best practice playing the game.

So they are already on top by playerskill!
Thats what i like, what should be the reward for playing / working more imo.

But you grant them also more HP, slightly, but still more damage, avoidance, resistance...

So if two players are equal in playerskill an gear, what is the main factor to win.
Spent time and more skillpoints assigned.
But why?
Why they need that if they already the best practiced players and the players with the most experience (playing wise) and knowledge about the game?
Why they arent capped for pvp?

You said they maybe only have 100 HP more, and thats only the one extra hit.
Yes thats exactly the one hit too much.
You then need to be significant better in playerskill. What sure is possible, but again why?
I'm also nit against people who play a lot, i grant them everything, but extra power due to pvp. I have only slight concerns about beeing able to fill any role and that specializations are prefered, but to spezialize in all possible directions gives not only an advantage in having a choice how to play, it also gives all over all general advantages through resistancies and HP / Focus.

About Focus, i saw people with 1000+ Focus how is that avvomplished, also influenced through Adv Level?

Regarding this, Air Shield is Focus related.
So, the more Focus... win, because it's like HP then.

Another thing.

To raise HP and Focus we need to level skills.
Here i have a question.

Wouldnt it be better to raise Adv Level for Skills beyond 80 more then to skill more skills to 80?
So if 1-80 is the same like 80-100 for every skill, then why not factor 80-100 x2 to determine Adv. Level?

I think a lot of players just dont want to skill all Magic trees or multiple weapons / armor types.
But how they raise their Adv Level then, and again they also are less resistant.

So the system want us to Skill at least all magic, if you want or not. Period!

So that would mean, bring at least all Magicskills to 80, then specialize maybe, but still raising all trees will allways give you more and more advantage.

I and i think a lot of others would like it more if you need not do that to be competetive.

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos made it very clear if he talks about Roleplay and even if you arent into RP players pick things they like to use. The one likes fire and Death, another likes water and Life.
When someone then has reached 80 or even 100 in all these Skills he better uses then other skills and builds and raise them to 80, although he cannot identify himself with this "Role" and also just dont like the playstyle maybe?
You know one is more tanky and use Earth, the other one is more the swifty kiting type, another likes CC.

It's maybe great to have the option to fill out all roles from a gamemechanics view and need no twinks to do that.
I dont think so, i think twinks are a lot better, if a character Profits that much from leveling all the roles for one character.
Some people just dont like to play all roles, but they have to if they want to pvp.
That's a big bummer for pvp imo.
So i want to specialize in Water and X or Y maybe also Z and comine that.
But if i just level these i will have a disadvantage because i didnt skill A,B,C,D,E....
And skilling all these would give me more power than specializing.

This is also @Tetsu Nevara main issue with decay, if i get it right.
The decay hits you harder when you do so and bring skills to 100+, but the power you get from that is less than to skill more "styles" to 80 or 100.

These things let many people complain and dislike the game.
I for myself, if this wont change can completely forget about pvp, although i would like to partake one day.
I'm level 75 and i dont want to skill fire or Death, i just figured out i can combine water with many other schools and it's fun, but if i make a "mostly" water build im somewhat more efficient because my gear is water related.
I know i then cannot fight this or that properly in PvE, but that's ok for me.

So, pvp competetiveness wants way too much to skill for many players, sure there are also the players around who feel fine and have no problem with this system, but i think, also thinking of casual players who also want to pvp and not just cannonfodder, but survivable opponents.
Wouldnt that be good to see more people fight and pvp and dont related that this much on spent time and skilling all or at least as much skills as possible?

The top players still are the top players, they have more practice, more knowledge and more variations possible.
But if one decided to specialize in only one or two schools, he should be able to beat one if those generalists.
To do that imo resistancies need to be rethinked and also the influence on Adv.Level and therefore HP and Focus.
And if people do all, there need to be a limit imo. Other it's more about spent time and grind then about playerskill.
I just think that the actual system let people complain and say no thank you, if they want to pvp, but dont want to skill all magic.