Discussion in 'Player Owned Towns' started by Rufus D`Asperdi, Feb 14, 2016.
~Great Garden Design @Rufus D`Asperdi ... !'
Just had a look around your town, and wanted to give you some quick feedback:
I very much like the concept of a central walled in keep with small lots. I like that way more than just sprawling village lots all over the map and calling it a day (which just feels like a liveless suburb).
However, your keep feels very artificial: In a walled in area, space should be at an absolute premium. Why then are there such big empty grass areas between the wall and the houses?
Having the crafting pavillion and the tower encircled by a second wall seems unnecessary: The tower should not need the protection (it's a defensive stone tower, after all), and the pavillion does not seem worthy of that much protection. It also lengthens the path to the pavillion from most houses.
The keep is missing its center: The center is the walled in crafted pavillion, and a tower...
Every city or village should have a central open space in the center, surrounded by vendors, whether NPC or player (it's called a market place, and it's a feature proven for thousands of years ).
You can put the public vendor there, make sure the path to the city entrance and to the crafting stations is short, ...
There the open space, which is wasted along the walls, would be really useful!
Your keep is a looong way from the map edge. Unfortunately there is not much you can do about it in your template, since you need the big open space to build the keep. Just know that the long walk will frighten away quite a few residents, and lower the amount of shoppers/visitors.
My (really friendly ) suggestions:
If the technology allows for it, let an outer ring of row houses back up direct against the walls of the keep - much closer to the way walled cities work in RL.
Make the whole keep feel more cramped instead of open and empty. And give it a center.
So, your city to do as you whish, of course. But I know that it's sometimes really helpful to get feedback, and that's my take on it!
PS: You have an absolutely gorgeous position on the world map. With a good city layout, sane rules (which you have ), and a bit of advertisement on the forums (which you do), you could make this into a gorgeous looking, flourishing trade hub.
Thank you for your thoughtful feedback. Let me provide my thinking on the decisions that went into the current layout, and the thoughts I have for those portions of the plan that are incomplete.
I agree in principle with everything you've mentioned here. Some of the shortcomings you note are to deal with technological limitations, some my vision, some will hopefully be addressed with future plans.
To be specific... The concept for the City Center was as you've cited... An attempt at the tight, compact feel of a Medieval Walled Town. One preliminary layout had the Row Lots packed much tighter to each other. However I discovered difficulties in packing them in much tighter than they are. Facing lots cannot be placed closer to each other than line defined by the front edge of the marker stones. Placing the lots this tightly creates an annoying obstacle course of lot marker stones that has the Avatar bouncing up and down as they run through the street. I've suggested on multiple occasions that the stones might be lowered, even to the point of being flush to grade. I've seen no indication that this is being considered. Also, the second story of the default houses cantilever out giving the impression that there is more space at the street level than there actually is or would be if instead of the default houses the row was lined with the Stone Row Houses that come with the Adventurer, Navigator and Developer pledges.
I have in mind a modification to the current layout of the center that will allow me to move the Pavilion out of the inner keep as you suggest. I've also never been entirely satisfied with its placement within the inner keep, for the same reasons you cite.
The inner keep (sans crafting pavilion) will remain walled because I wish it to be.
For the answer to your query on the reason for the large grassy areas, see below.
I agree completely. Central Markets are something I've petitioned for actively since Player Owned Towns were first introduced and I purchased mine the first day they were available.
I assembled three separate proposals on how this might be achieved with minimal development, using already existing technologies. I used every reasonable, non-belligerent method I could think of and execute to get these proposals in front of the development team. I had my question on the team's plans for the support of Central Markets answered in a relatively recent Release Post Mortem. I was told "No" in unequivocal terms. It may be my imagination embellishing the event in my own mind, but it seemed to me that @DarkStarr leaned into the camera to tell me No.
However, I've still not entirely given up on the idea. With the advent of the Bundles, and the Tax Free POT Lots Deeds contained therein, I've a nascent plan to purchase several of them including Tax Free POT Village Lot Deeds. These would be laid out in those large grassy areas you note above... They are, and always have been, reserved for Central Market space. However, there are a couple of technological limitation that currently block the execution of this plan:
The NPC Limit on a Village Lot is currently 2. This is a performance issue, and MAY be raised, though there is no guarantee of that. 2 Vendors per lot does not make for a convincing Central Market. I would like upwards of 12 on a Village Lot.
The ability to have multiple player owned vendors occupying a single lot is dependent on the Rental Permissions system that is scheduled for post wipe. Not that I would actually rent the space... I need the permissions system to make it work correctly.
Public Vendors are not available to Governors of Player Owned Towns. This is another request I made and was told No.
Your last point... the "Wasted" space along the walls is there quite intentionally. The City Center is meant to be a fully functional, defensible fortress. Having clear paths along the inner walls would be essential to be able to respond quickly in a defense of the city. This is also the reason there are no structures within several tens of meters to the Outside of the center's walls.
I quite like the placement of the Center. I'm one of those that think the idea that everything should be immediately available is immersion breaking. I actually provided input on what I'd like to see in the Grasslands Template prior to its construction. I've no real confirmation that my suggestions were taken into consideration, but the template as published is quite close to Ideal from my perspective.
However I have taken your point into consideration. If you'll notice the Lot Layout Map in the Original Post, there is a path from the entrance across the northern (Soon to be Western come Release 31 and the Grassland Left template is put in place) edge of the map, looping down to the Eastern (to be Northern) end of the center leading through many Village Lots where those that wish to have Vendors on their lots might be able to place them and have good access to a good, natural traffic flow.
If the layout frightens away some percentage of potential residents, so be it. If I were to design the city for maximum efficiency for crafting and sales, with no consideration for Immersion and Role Playing, it would look quite different. I'm happy with the balance I've achieved. I will never be able to please everyone so I will please myself, and share that with those similarly pleased.
I shall, and thank you again for your thoughtful feedback.
I do, and that is my hope.
Very nice looking place
Thank you, @Lumajo. After a long time experimenting to figure out what would work and what would not, and Portalarium having created template that I like very much, I'm finally happy with the result.
There are a few things I would like, some on the schedule, some not, to complete the vision:
The "Lawn Mower" (on the Post Wipe schedule) to remove the tall grass from what will be 'roads' or paths and the area inside the fortified center to define them and make them appear maintained. Ideally, I would have like to have cobbled those areas, but the solution provided by Portalarium isn't suitable to the purpose. I have too large and area that I would like cobbled, and using the pavers would require too much of my decoration limit.
There are some pieces of Lot deco that I would like to have made POT deco that can be placed outside the boundaries of a lot. For example, I would like to be able to surround the List Field with seating. The Bleachers, Stage, and Stage Stairs currently in-game must be placed on a Lot. I would like to use the Lot as the performance area, with the audience seated outside its boundaries. If there were to be a PvP tournament held there, and the audience were seated on the lot, they could be included in the PvP battle at the whim of the participants as anyone entering a lot flagged for PvP, whether they intend to fight or spectate, will be flagged for PvP.
I would like some decorative, POT deco Banner Stands that could be crafted to display the personal Coats of Arms that were a Founder's Pledge Reward. Castle Walls can't be decorated and I'd like to display arms at the gates to the town. These could be a simple as a vertical pole stuck into the ground with a horizontal cross piece at or near the top off which hangs a banner that could be set to display the Coat of Arms.
At one point I'd wanted a POT Deco version of the Ring of Stones to use for a point of interest I'd like to establish. I've since acquired another Tax Free Lot Deed that I can use for the purpose and place the existing Ring of Stones on it to realize that bit of the vision.
I would also like performance increases sufficient that Portalarium might make another drastic increase to the Deco Limits, and the number of NPCs that can be placed on a lot. This would allow me to 'fine tune' the deco... use more pavers, add more deco and points of interest... some copses of trees, etc. The increase in the number of NPCs I'd like to be able to establish a Central Market in the city center.
It's also been rumored that there may be wildlife added to templates. If this is true, I would very much like a herd of horses to the South (to be East after Release 31) of the river. It would seem appropriate for the Grasslands.
None of this is essential. I like what I have now, but the any of the above I might be able to get would make it that much better.
I just spent a half hour touring Dawn's Keep. I am extremely impressed with what you've built there.
Wanted to climb your tower and see the view, but the doors were locked.
Does the tower have roof access?
Great job. I'll be sure to pass through sometime after launch and see what the residents do with the place!
Thank you, Sir Frank! It does. You're welcome in Dawn's Keep at any time.
I think you're doing a great job laying it all out - looks very enticing
Original post updated.
I am now accepting reservations from interested Avatars.
The grasslands feel of Dawn's Keep is truly unique and gorgeous. The city center is thoughtfully designed. Location, south of Britanny, can't be beat. Added bonus: Governor Rufus is one cool dude.
I'd recommend all avatars looking for a place to call home check it out. I've reserved three lots there.
Persistence has come, and I've begun the process of rebuilding! I've taken the learnings from the previous incarnations of Dawn's Keep and incorporated them. Thus far I am pleased with the results.
This is how it began... a blank slate.
The first step, establish the cornerstone of the outer perimeter wall:
The completed perimeter wall:
I've reported a few graphical glitches I found... new bugs with this release. The 10m gates are missing their Portcullis, and the straight tower wall sections have problems with invisible doors... beware breaking your nose.
A bit of patting myself on the back, and testament to how much practice I've had placing these walls... When it came time to put in the last piece, it slid in almost perfectly, with only about 6 inches of lateral deviation (I.E. the two ends failed to match up side to side by about 6 inches). I was able to correct this with minor position adjustments to about 4 or five pieces. Lenghtwise the fit was perfect, with either end of the last piece meeting the piece on either side of it within the overlap allowed by each piece.
The perimeter wall measures 880 meters (Just over half a mile)
It is 180 meters (590 feet) from the Gate of Courage (Eastern Gate) to the Western Wall.
It is 240 meters (790 feet) from the Gate of Love (Northern Gate) to the Gate of Truth (Southern Gate)
The outer perimeter encloses 33,400 square meters (7 Keep Lots or 8.25 Acres or 3.25 Hectares) of land.
Then I placed the inner keep, the NPC buildings, and placed the lots for the List Field, the Crafting Pavilion, and my own lot within the inner keep:
One of the modifications I've made is to move the Crafting Pavilion out of the inner keep and into the central square adjacent to the NPC buildings. I believe this will be more convenient for everyone.
Tomorrow I build the Row Houses in the outer keep.
I will be claiming the lot for the Crafting Pavilion during my first opportunity with Group 29 on Friday afternoon, delaying the claim of my own residential lot until Group 91. I've also placed the lot for the Public Gardens, and will be claiming that lot on Monday the 8th of August. I should have no difficulty laying out all of the lots for the town by the end of this coming week.
Several have expressed interest, and either have or shortly will reserve lots. If you have interest, please feel free to start a conversation and contact me.
Row Lots in Place:
That's really about all I can do in the Center without having claimed lots.
Next will be laying out the lots Outside the center.
That's impressive! Well done!
Was able to claim my first lot today. I claimed the Village Lot for the crafting pavilion... My own house will wait until Group 91.
It's now configured and fully functional:
I have a Pavilion like the ones used in other town, but I just became enamored of using the Greenhouse as a Crafting Pavilion.
When I first claimed the lot and set everything up, I realized that the lot was set about half a meter too far to the left in this picture... My OCD wouldn't let that be, so I unclaimed the lot as the quickest way to disassemble it, corrected the lot placement, and rebuilt everything. I'm now satisfied with the placement.
Next lot placement will be on Monday, with Group 38, when I will claim the Town Lot that will become the Public Gardens. Between now and then I'll work on laying out the Lots not in the walled town.
The Eastern Ediface. The view from the Riverside neighborhood
The hardest part about getting these screenshots is finding a time when the light is right and it's not Raining! And, within a couple of minutes of me taking this screenshot, it started raining again.
Word of advice... Don't log out on top of a Castle Wall Tower. I logged back in and I ... materialized before the tower I was standing on did... On the bright side, I now know where the Ankhs are in the Grasslands templates.
Hail and Well Met Governor Rufus!
The Crafting Pavilion is quite nice!
However, I find that the door is locked.
Might I beg access please?
Apologies... I believe I've opened it up now.
Edited the Original Post with the latest information, and to bring it from Future Tense to Present Tense as we've now reached Persistence.
OP Updated with latest status including new lot claims.
Stopped by your Town today, while traveling...it is very impressive and well-done. Are the walls/towers used around the "walled-town" store-bought from the Add-on Store (the White-Stone Castle Wall in Outdoor Deco Section), or craftable? Again, well-done on your Town -- lots of effort and eye for detail.
Thank you for your time and assistance.
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