Time And Effort

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HogwinHD, May 11, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    9,043
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Get In MY BELLY!
    for me it seems so hard to balance combat or pvp with this system. sure you can say it levels out, but it never truly does. Not truly. So you will always have food to feed the people that are pvp and look at every advantage/disadvantage, and they will talk, be it here or elsewhere. If it is not perceived as a fair system then I wonder how sota will fair for the pvp part. As for the system now I would love it for a single player RPG, as you are the ONLY avatar, the one and true person who can save the world, but right now you will have thousands of the same avatar. Not so special to the RP part of the game, nor any other part of the game either. Man I want factions and skill caps! Make meaningful choices. You said its a brave new world but I do not see it, I see it as an exorcise in futility through grinding. I still love ya though TL, you are one hell of a man in my book :)
     
  2. CarlNZ

    CarlNZ Avatar

    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    768
    Trophy Points:
    43
    The problem is, currently it's not really a ladder of skill and time. It's just a ladder of time. People here seem to think casual is several hours a day. But casual is a few hours a week, and that's where most of the potential prevarication for this game sits. Just catering to a bunch of us old timers will have this game on life support quickly and then all the time we spend in game becomes irrelevant.
     
  3. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    7,021
    Likes Received:
    26,605
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    "The brave new world thing"... I don't get it really either, but it's new, so I can see it's not an ended subject, and one that will be here for a very long time because of it's complexities, but more so because it's so deep to try and understand, "that it's become un-understandable to me... "which is why I've been following this thread, but with not much to offer to the conversation.

    For me as a player right now, it serves me to generally ignore most of the more complex issue's controversies, because it's well over my head or time to be able to understand it, or that once I do understand it, it changes again into something I have either not had the time to read about, or the time to have found current information in feedback because it's so spread throughout so many different posts and threads. So, currently, I do try to get in more gaming time while attempting to forget what a technical beast of a game it is. "The tech now is so immersion busting", it's effecting my enjoyment whenever I am playing, because I'm looking for all I'm so concerned with "about the game".

    And ya know I love ya back Grand Brother of Mine So Much and Always ;)
    [​IMG]
    ~TL~:D
     
    cyathome and Ravicus Domdred like this.
  4. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    7,021
    Likes Received:
    26,605
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    Should be true :rolleyes: once we get out of Alpha.
    Us old timers have allot less time left on the clock to play anything :D

    I do get what you're saying here, but this is one of the reasons I try and avoid these issues, because I see nothing in the game as being competitive or anything to compete for, whether mentally in challenge or in physical in-game objects to be had. I just don't see where there's any sort of something to compete for, which causes so many to compete for the vast nothing that's here.

    Maybe it's just me and I just don't get it.
    ~Time Lord~o_O
     
  5. CarlNZ

    CarlNZ Avatar

    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    768
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Because the PvP is open world, it's definitely competitive. If there was gated PvP content, then you could fight on your level, buy as it is, it's just better to not flag. Crafting likewise, there's little point trying to sell, when those with more time make better products for the same materials and time spent making, so crafting to sell as a newbie can't happen. Having no real cap will keep me players away from top tier interactions, other games prevent that by having a cap, so someone would at least have a chance against someone who doesn't actually go to work or have a family who just plays the game. In other areas, I agree with you, competition doesn't change anything. You can do the story in isolation without any consequence for example.
     
    Autumn Willow, Stundorn and Time Lord like this.
  6. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    7,021
    Likes Received:
    26,605
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    I do see what you're saying, but I see little in the way of by volume how this justifies the means. We have a small community right now, extremely small. Within that extremely small community I would agree with you, yet I do think more players are on the way throughout this year and continuing which will aide our player based economy to become a good place for any to thrive in.

    As far as the PvP, there's content coming which will disperse the PvP community from the current areas of PvP content which may seem because of it's condensed nature to be filled with those a new player could not compete, yet we have few new players, because we aren't truly players yet, (using the old drum excuse=) "it's not yet a completed game". An old expression yes, but still holding in many ways true. Our game is also not PvP centered around, it's just an included content. That remains true and all else does need it's work time due from our Portalarium staff as well. So PvP not being "the end, all be all" of the game, what is within the MMO must also have something within the single player offline through development's attention.

    The same disappointment in the waiting of things to come is not just a PvP issue, as it's also a fishing, agriculture and so many other things issue, which does remain for us to wait on it all, until it's all ready before we condemn what is, because what is not yet.

    So we truly don't currently have enough player base for me to totally agree.
    All that may sound like a big wheel of double talk, but that what waiting brings :(

    The PvP world is currently condensed in area as well as in player amounts, but not so condensed within it's future which could change the observations you currently present o_O...
    All of that is why it's just a waiting thing to me... "or I'd may agree with you" :)

    We are still waiting for sausage to fully be cooked "from us all" :D...
    [​IMG]
    ~Time Lord~:p
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  7. mercster

    mercster Avatar

    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    1,573
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    Just reading through this thread, I love some of the verbiage used...and I'm talking to BOTH sides (the "it's not fair we won't catch up!" and the "hey i earned this!" crowds):

    People keep talking about WORKING HARD and PUTTING THE TIME IN. Don't get it twisted, this ain't WORK. This is a video game. :) If someone obsessively grinds and becomes a "Titan" (what?), they did it because they wanted to. They were having fun...playing a video game.

    And to those who say they can't (time restraints) or won't (game isn't fun)...why would you wanna put time and "work" into a video game anyway? Do what's fun for you. :) If the only thing that's fun in a video game is to be as powerful as someone else...I dunno. Try Pac-Man.
     
  8. Serena Strangelove

    Serena Strangelove Avatar

    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    433
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Dear mercster, I wish I could like your post more than once ;)
     
    Vox Aquila, Time Lord and mercster like this.
  9. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    5,683
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Estgard/ Cologne
    That's true!!!

    but...
    It's everybody's right to ask for measuring things around normality if major parts of the videogame they like are competetive (PvP, economy)
    I like both, but i need to stay away for a long time if not forever, because the measurement of the requirements to compete are higher than a normal player can reach. Therefore they should limit and balance things so that everybody who is willing and ready to play for it to reach this competetivness will be competetive in some month.

    I believe it will be balanced over time, because things will be achievable easier over time.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  10. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    2,863
    Likes Received:
    11,106
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    The main problem I have with the "Its not fair we can't catch up" mentality is that if the game were changed so that someone could come into the game and in a few days be "competitive" - then whats the incentive for people to keep playing for months, years, and investing time to be really good at something? I mean if you could get competitive quickly, without the grind, without the time investment, without farming and crafting 30,000 gold ingots (the refinement time on that alone is measured in weeks!) ....then why bother doing any of that?

    I've watched new people come into the game months "late" and quickly rise to be able to do things that I can't do despite having double the invested playtime simply due to a different focus of their attention. The point is, to "get good" you have to invest the time, otherwise the time investment is worthless. If the time investment is worthless, player retention suffers. I can't think of any MMO that I played for more than a few months after reaching the "cap" - despite the quality of friends and social activities - if there's no more progress to be achieved then there's little incentive. Even now nearly a year in I can still make progress - extremely minor progress, fractions of a % of improvement - but its progress. There's still things I can't do yet that I would like to be able to do. If you can roflstomp everything in a month, well, why stick around?
     
  11. Autumn Willow

    Autumn Willow Avatar

    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    930
    Trophy Points:
    18
    It would have been nice if someone who played for months and/or year earned a house or keep or a castle. Making it a true in-game achievement. Having that moment when the first hardcore player bought the first keep on the server, everyone going over to have a party in his/her castle, cheering at the immense achievement.

    But you know... money happened. ;)
     
  12. MrBlight

    MrBlight Avatar

    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    4,454
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I never got around to really reading through this thread till now.
    Well written devil cult, and its good to hear from someone who put the time and effort into making a good argument for his stance.
    That all being said,

    I think that your completly underplaying the effect Attunment and base resistance has in PVP.
    I could run a level 80 pure fire mage. And your right, i could fight another level 80 or 100 and do very well / win.

    The problems arise when your level 80, facing someone who is level 100 and has taken the time to get a base resistance in fire as well.
    I think the level is really not whats important here, and i would even argue that your examples arnt the best, as your talking very specifically about the EVL tournies which are dueling (ill explain why i think these are bad examples)

    The idea that someone that went pure in 1 build, instead of hybriding all over the place, and thats why they arnt dominent. Fair. Thats true, 50 in each skill isnt going to get you very far, but what it WILL do is make your baseline better across the board. The problems arise when that BASELINE resistance to everything, starts to exceed what an average player can do when focused, and cna realistictly do before the game becomes stale.

    Im not stronger than the guy lvl 80 which have less tree gmed than me. I wont use all those tree together.

    But you are though. Your compeltly ignoring the fact that all the passive/inates run all the time. Your completly ignoring the fact that even though your not USING the 10 skills in firemagic that you have up to 80, doesnt mean they dont play a big role in your over all strength. This gives you base resistance. This is the big problem in PVP. Its not the *Level* gap .. its not the individual skills, its the baseline resistance that becomes redicoulous.
    Someone at adv level 100, easily has every magic tree at 80. (i know im adv level 91 now, and i am about 3/4 the way from this, as im lazy ) Which translates to a good chunk of attunement. Which traslantes to a good chunk of resistance. This is ignoring the bonuse focuse, bonuse health, bonuse dmg avoidance, bonuse crit chance, hit strength, spell crit chance, heal power, life steal power, burn duration .. etc etc etc.. that all these skills add.. Regardless of whether you are using them in your deck or not.


    Yes your right. There are some people that are GENERALLY good pvp'ers.. and matching them on the same strength / skill level, they would still outplay the majority of people. But to imply that skill level, and attunement/resistance from even UNUSED skills, dont give an advantage is a lie.

    And my big problem, is this GAP is already very very high, and its a LOT of hours to get to a point where a good deck/focused build / good pvp skills is really more of a deciding factor then simply level difference.
    My problem isnt that i PERSONALLY wont grind enough to match, stay relevent.. Its that for me to bring in a buddy right now, and get to a point he can PVP realistically with where the AVERAGE PVPER is (id say your about the average skill level for people playing competitivly right now ) Is how many hours? And as ALL your baseline skills go up 10 points, that start to competitive time just increases.

    I fully understand the curve that hits into the 100 - 110 + skill levels ( yes i am there )... my point is that i feel that 5-6 months down the road.. or **** even by release.. that gap is going to be the deciding factor of why we wont see many people put the time into SOTA for PVP reasons. And this is simply ignoring all PVE content and issues thats also ridden about this.


    As stated by your other post, i agree there are ways they can help these issues, like instances where everyones scaled, and it is deck vs deck, and group fights require an actual team comp... which leads into my above comments.

    I dont like the idea that you guys are all basing PVP strength by dueling.
    I understand that its pretty much all we got in SOTA atm, but the reality is good PVP in any game.. isnt 1v1 consented duels.

    You might be a spectacular dueler, you might have the best buff situations figured out.. etc etc.. But you cant pretend that in a 8v8 fight, those innates and ressistances where your fighting a wide variety of players with differnt * focused * skills, that those skill levels, attunement, and resitances arnt going to be a huuuge factor.

    Anyways im rambling, and i think the arguments been worn out since persistance. I hope im wrong, and i hope that enough players come in, flag and theres enough pvp'ers across the board that all levels will be interesting making the game good.
    All i know is that if something isnt done too offset the need for that minimum of 500 + hours (powerleveld ) to be good enough to start winning pvp fights based on player skill and deck comp... drawing any noticeable pvp crowed into or BACK into SOTA will be very unlikely. And i know personally i cant advertise differently to close gamer friends. And unfortunatly when a game comes out that has that appeal, SOTA will fall into a hard 2nd very quickly for me. And i hope that doenst happen.

    @2112Starman
    Lol you should test this and see the person that can beat you 3x in a row, what the lowest hours put into game is. lo
     
  13. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    7,021
    Likes Received:
    26,605
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    When the battle area/s are built, then we can have a war. Until then, it's dueling which doesn't interest me at all, other than being a big fan and spectator of those who are, because it's those someone like me follows into such battle areas.
    "Whenever they are made". I think PvP interest at all levels or interest within it will always be around 20% because it's around 20% of our game. From there, it's only the allure of the fantastic areas for it made in the future which may make it any more than it is... which has remained around 20% (my estimates) through all our past history.

    [​IMG]
    Just guessing ;)~Time Lord~o_O
     
    Ravicus Domdred likes this.
  14. cyathome

    cyathome Avatar

    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    671
    Trophy Points:
    28
    If you want to be king of the world you have to be a slave to the grind :)

     
    Time Lord likes this.
  15. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

    Messages:
    3,620
    Likes Received:
    8,010
    Trophy Points:
    165
    No, I'm simply not going to directly argue with you or bring you up in posts because you are in the same guild as me. You have also been good about not doing the same thing. There is enough other people in the thread to argue with!
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  16. Magnus Zarwaddim

    Magnus Zarwaddim Avatar

    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,877
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Wasn't this entire debate put to rest in one of Chris' latest blog postings when he said, and I am paraphrasing, that he would not change something that would adversely affect a minority of players just because a majority is clamoring for it? And bear in mind, this is not a democracy where majority rules. It's a game, being created by a private company.
     
    mercster and Time Lord like this.
  17. Jackdepirate

    Jackdepirate Avatar

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Owl Sky City
    @Mac2 May have the advantage of having 150 GMs over me, and its true that that is an advantage, but there's no way he can effectively use all of those skills in a single fight. He has to pick a build just like everybody else does and go with it. And that build is going to have some weak points, and some strong points. You have to capitalize on the weak points. Deck swap mid combat, have different gear sets and strategies ready to go, be more mobile than they are, or just plainly know your opponent and how they fight. Pick something you can do, and go with it. If they kill you 100 times, make sure you've stood back up 101, and done your best to learn something everytime you've fallen. Eventually you might have a eureka moment and understand what it is that keeps killing you, and learn how to better prepare yourself to combat it. There's way too many options for building resistance gear now, having defensive skills, shields now being limited to one element at a time, or being able to push specific attunements well over 100 for people to be complaining about never being able to defeat the "titans".

    Level has absolutely nothing to do with PvP unless you're talking a 30-40 lvl difference at 80+ and at that point, really the only thing you're missing that they have is a higher health and focus pool if you've built properly. In my honest opinion I don't think anybody needs to be GMing anything until they have passed 100 adventurer level, unless they know for sure they aren't going to be leveling up other trees. It's simply not efficient. A GM skill is only twice as effective as a level 25 skill, just get it to 80 or 90. It's cheap, and then move on to the next one.

    A second point to having all your skills in the 80s range is it leaves you open to try new builds when the trees get messed with. We all know that nerfs happen, be prepared for them.

    To use @Mac2 as an example again: 150x GM count certainly is a big number. Compare it to my 80-90s in every skill as well. He has such a slight advantage over me in levels at the cost of like 8x more xp in his total pool than I have. An extra 10-20 attunement in a tree maybe? Grand scale, that's really nothing. If you want to min/max then absolutely, go for it. But it is such a slight advantage that it should not even be talked about anymore. He earned that very slight advantage. Of course anyone would like to have that advantage, all you gotta do is spend the time. If that slight advantage isn't worth the time to you, then so be it. But seriously, people need to understand how small that advantage really is.

    Torpid torment imo is also the single best counter to a high level adventurer in PvP. They use WAY more focus per spell, which with torpid torment on, translates into health damage as well. You think Mac wants to spam chain lightning when its hitting him for 30+ damage everytime he casts it, while he's still taking damage from me at the same time? Maybe he'll start stacking spells to reduce the focus cost, but you have tabula rasa ready to drop his stacked glyphs, so he's forced to single cast, or play more defensively, and heal. Maybe he uses death magic, but you've used the resistance potion, celestial blessing, flute of defiance buff, and a shield of air at the right time so he can't even heal anymore, and all of a sudden he's dead. Because you were ready for what was about to happen. It is possible, and people just need to keep trying. Figure out the hidden little metas within the game and use them. To this day I still never see anyone use music in a duel, and I do it all the time. That's a bigger advantage than any of Mac's GMs.

    Anybody that has even been good at PvP in this game has more than likely died to people with several times their xp on many occasions, and learned because of it. In my early days @HogwinHD used to steamroll me, so I'd stay after Virtue League or go throughout the week and I would duel with him for hours. It was like I was a fly he had to keep swatting away. Eventually there came a duel after 100+ deaths where I finally killed him. I would LOVE to see my death stats for r28 and r29 because I firmly believe I died more than any other player during that time.

    Personally I'm quite happy being a lvl 90 adventurer, and if you know me, you know I love PvP. I would not enjoy it if I could not compete with the higher levels, and at my level, I'm confident in my ability to compete on equal ground with anyone else in game.
     
  18. Mac2

    Mac2 Avatar

    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    7,943
    Trophy Points:
    153
    And I often use you jack as an example of someone who was lower adventure level then many of the opponents you faced, but through skill of playing, knowledge of the game, deck building mechanics, managed to beat higher level people, and not just a couple levels either. As you point out, it takes practice as well, its not like you just made a character and knew all this, you and hogwind practiced pvping each other all the time.
     
  19. Vox Aquila

    Vox Aquila Avatar

    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    593
    Trophy Points:
    18
    absolutely agree with the above, practice is king.

    forget about blaming people that like to grind and get down to the EVL tourney and start fighting in tier C. There are people fighting week in and week out with health in the 300's. It's great to see the enthusiasm of these newer fighters that just get back up, and try again with a new deck or a new buff or tactic.

    you learn more from dieing, so get out there and die...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.