twitch combat instead of turn based/cooldown combat

While I would love a err. twitch based combat system, I dunno how well it could work. I mean honestly I would love a DS system like Bayien (PRAISE THE SUN) mentioned, but even that had it's lag problems on a small scale between only two or three combatants (doing a parry an riposte was not... easy).

I would like there to be a system more interesting than clicking an enemy and occasionally pressing a hotkey for melee combat but I'm not really sure how to achieve that.

 

I acknowledge that it might be a problem to do good real-time combat without lag issues in the PVP department, but at the same time, it would likely help SOTA draw a much larger audience, due to the fact that the typical person wouldn't look at it's combat and immediately think of games like WoW. WoW sells, but most people who would play a game like WoW are already playing it, and aren't in the market for something they think is similar, (no matter how different it may be below the surface mechanics)......

And again, I bring up the long-term enjoyability of the combat. Most people, myself included, will get bored of the click and wait formula very quickly and instead of fighting, will be that much more likely to avoid combat situations entirely. While a real-time combat system will be harder to implement successfully, it will definitely ensure more players will stay engaged in the system longer, and thus more likely to complete quests and events that are combat heavy......

I'm sure I'm not speaking for everyone with my opinions on the matter, and I will definitely still play the game if it uses a t-b/c-d system of combat. I'm just saying that in my opinion, a good combat system is worth the extra trouble it'll take to make it work properly.....

 

I personally love the combat system of Mount & Blade: Warband. It's all about timing the attacks, moving, blocking, countering and attacking from different angles. You also need to block in the right direction. Some details are interesting such as to damage a ring / chain / plate armors better with a sword, you need to thrust, as swings are partly deflected by the armor.

In M&B Archery is fun, having to aim with the shots, take the risky headshot or go for a much more certain shot to the torso... I've been playing it in multiplayer for years, and it's still a lot of fun, with TDM, sieges and battles. If that kind of combat system would work in this game, I'm not sure... But it would definitely be easier to implement than in a MMORPG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_FixQPzd94

 

I agree with most the replies here, I know all of you can't agree on one system that could work.

But I beleive all of us can agree, that the current gameplay/combat mechanics we saw in the "Iolo video" is just unchallenging, boring and quite frankly just wrong.

If they want to make this game fun and last a longer then a couple months, they will need a more complex/unique gameplay combat system in place then the current dull "AoE combat manuever/spell everything all day every day" type of combat that Lord British displayed in the gameplay video.

I hope the mods/devs take our comments to heart and realize that the current dull combat system will not work.

 

I certainly hope not. Not everyone that wants to play the game has good twitch reflexes, and I can't see a good reason to put them at a disadvantage in a story-based game. As another example, see:

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=please-make-the-game-friendly-to-the-5-10-with-colorblindness

Penalizing people for poor twitch reflex is similar to penalizing people with color blindness. If the development team were to decide to focus more on interesting combat than an interesting story, then that would be fine.

But, ultimately, it will likely work out. I just wouldn't want to go so far down twitch-combat-road that some largish portion of the population will find it difficult to play.

 

Agree, twitchbased and skillful PvP with as many variables as possible to come out ahead.

UO magic system had such PvP.

 

I don't mind some twitch based elements, but I think there needs to be something similar to a phase time where your IG skills are more important than your RL skills. Although I liked Kingdoms of Amalur, I prefer my RPGs like the first Dragon Age (PC) and NWN which I hope is closer to what SOTA becomes.

 

I've been showing this style of combat often on the forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPZ5yuiWWeE

&

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqaRqih7Cuw - here he explains it

it's the type of combat i'd want for this game.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to combine the twitch/non-twitch playstyles. Have some actions that take a long time/don't require real time reflexes, and have others that do.

I like focusing on player skill and requiring people to pay attention. I don't think that requires split-second timing. Nor do I think that such a system would become macro-able as a result.

I like a keyboard interface for the most part (expert friendly, very flexible). Not a fan of doing things with the mouse. Hitting a button to cycle through targets, or target a particular opponent lets me have more fun that pixel hunting.

Plus, there are some physically challenged people with sharp minds but slow reflexes.

 

@cheshire

It's not to say they are penalizing folks with poor twitch reflexes. There are ways to scale things. It's about balance. You can make a monster that is "easily twitch-defeatable" and have the stuff it drops be comparable to something the more difficult monster drops, but have them with a different style of play entirely. A bow that poisons, but also drains your own health, versus a bow that hits quite hard but with the downside of slow reload time. It's about your style of play and what you want, by that point, something that Richard has done a relatively decent job to provide offerings for -- versatility in one direction or another.

Also, there's nothing to say that you could not therefore make friends in this MMO world who could help carry you through more difficult content to see any completionist story-bits you absolutely need to see, or otherwise barter for the suppliable services you have to bring you back said loot.

All that said, I absolutely adore twitch combat, and my definition of a perfect game would be one where not only there's action combat, but true storyline, immersiveness, and customization. Think TERA meets FFXI meets Minecraft.

I feel like the mod components would be amazing to help that last part especially, but I suppose we won't know if we can hit that goal until later. (But either way, I would gladly take a house customization system similar to what UO had, if it were at -all- remotely codeable. IMHO, nothing would suck more than being an "avatar" that has a house that look like everybody elses'.)

At any rate, I've diverted from topic, but I have to say again action combat is still very much more visceral and modernized to many, and it would be a great loss and cause interest to fall much more quickly than without it to a modern crowd, which could hurt sales and expansion pack sales in the future. The base presentation is always what's most important.

I trust Mr. Garriott to not ferret away bits of story/loot behind the closed doors of "you can't beat this content" to the point that it's not attainable at all... so why can't you all as well?

 

I want twitch and turn based. Basically there's way too much lag in the universe to force people to time to the millisecond. But I don't want to deal with a dozen of skills who's only actual value is I have to use one when the other is on cooldown.

A game like WoW had so many offensive skills that I have to use based on cooldowns and rotations, that it overloads the UI with just this...not even counting my cc and defense. I want less skills (or internally think of a best available macros to one button) so the I can be actively dodging, ccing, interrupting, etc.

I shouldn't need to start at my keyboard because too much is bound. I should not need to stare at my skills, let alone click them. I want to feel and react like a console game.

 

I miss the old days of real role playing games, where I can actually play a character with a Dex of 16 without requiring my need of a Dex of 16. Granted, I've played characters with an Int of 5 where I obviously have an Int closer to 11.

Unfortunately, the last decade or more of electronic roleplaying games have slowly let technology overshadow the 'role' and 'playing' part of being an RPG. My personal Dex of 8 makes "Commander Sheppard" as skilled as a stormtrooper. If it wasn't for stealth, "Adam Jensen" might as well have been Tono Porkins.

Hopefully the devs will consider a non-twitch mode for the single player game, even if it's just an optional feature tacked on later, for those of us who have vague memories of playing awesome characters with skills and abilities that far exceed our own (real-world) abilities.

 

@Syrion

Agreed. It shouldn't get that twitch. The game simply lags over the internet. It's why games have global cooldowns.

But if I have a million skills to hunt for and press, I can't even focus on my opponent to try to interrupt his skills. I want my eyes and fingers to already be in the right places so that I can react. If skill 3 is on cooldown then I have to switch to skill 7 then I'm looking at my keys and moving my hand. If this is on cooldown, then I need to click something with my mouse , which messes up camera and targeting. This is the nightmare scenario that completely destroys game-play.

 

The only thing I love more than hitting tab 1,5,2 over and over while watching a fight is Dragon's Lair style combat where it's mostly watching then choosing left or right when something flashes.

Just kidding. I think it's now fairly safe to say you can count me out of anything tab targeted. As a huge MMO (sandbox) fan, up until recently there was no choice for combat. Now there are at least a couple decent MMOs that have real time combat.

IMHO "twitch" is the wrong word to describe a type of combat - you don't need to be a caffeine addled supergamer to have fun with it. I think active vs passive combat describes the concept better. The Dragon's Lair reference was in jest, but tab based targeting with cool downs and rotating hot keys is a lot closer to watching and hoping than it is to doing.

Active combat also isn't a new development - most single player games where you controlled one character (as opposed to a group) had active combat before the advent of MMOs. Tab targeting was a response - a compromise - to deal with the severe lag inherent in the early phone modem based internet. Tab targeting and cool downs enabled early games to keep tracking combat through lag spikes as user input is only needed relatively occasionally compared to active combat.

We've only just (2-3 yrs) been able to start building massive online worlds with projectile physics, hit boxes, active blocking and real time dodging. I've been waiting for this to happen forever.

For the record - I'm old, my reflexes aren't what they used to be and I die A LOT. Having the computer control 90% of what happens in combat just doesn't feel like I'm really playing anything - just watching. Plus, it seems to me, anything that can be easily macro'd really just comes down to repetitive button pushing and watching explosions imho.

 

@Hiro-Protagonist

Whatever you opponent is flashing, you're doing the same thing. Opponent goes for big swing, you'd welcome to interrupt, block or dodge. That probably means you shouldn't go for a big swing either if he's fully alert and paying attention.

Targeting really comes down to your point of view, how you move, how the camera moves, how you use your skills...how much can you free the mouse up just to target? No one wants tab targeting at all. It's a crutch for a poor UI. But if you strain the mouse by using it for 10 things, it's not as free for targeting.

I basically want to play the game with my left hand on WASD, 1-4 and the fewest possible other buttons with my right hand doing targeting and camera with the mouse. Too many buttons and I now have to watch all corners of my screen and keyboard just to do something that should be natural. I want to fight monsters, not the UI.

 

I can't stand the cool down systems of almost every single major MMO. Please don't go with that system

 

Without a cooldown mechanic, how do we keep people from spamming an ability endlessly in combat? I don't care what it is, but there needs to be something to limit combat abilities. Without this, combat would always be won by the NPCs (since they can spam a lot faster than a human).

Even weapon swings are typically on a cooldown, although it isn't usually apparent.

 

I would like to see fewer skills, but more strategic use of them through position and timing of attacks. Especially position with regards to other players. Kind of like a real-time Fire Emblem.

 

@Jonathon.Doran
This is the different between a global cooldown (which I agree with) and a skill cooldown (which basically serves only to make you use another skill it it's place). GCDs keep some of the twitch/ping/bot advantage out. A c/d on a skill means that I need to cast fireball, then fire spray, then fire nuke, then go back to fireball, etc...when there was no situational difference between the skills but I had to keymap all of them and watch the cooldowns. Some people consider this "skill", I consider this fighting the UI.

Choosing to attack vs choosing to interrupt, dodge, or block - or choosing that I might be able to use a really big attack is the kind of thing I'd consider skill. I'm sure someone's said that is you can model rock, paper, scissors, you have enough skills for a smart player to anticipate and counter any situation...having more is just annoying.

 

Well, if you keep using the same move over and over, or even the same sequence of moves, the target should get wise and get a bonus to defend against it. That incentives variety without arbitrary per ability cooldown. Varying the situation fluidly in a way that rewards picking varying choices to exploit the situation would also help. So would some form of automated variety that adds in cosmetic or automatically optimized variations within the higher level selections made by the player.