What is the line between PvP and Griefing?

They originally proposed a PvP specific enchantment. It was dropped. I would have to go back and look at the details to be sure why.

One aspect I do like is time base incentive. In a video RG described the one place you can force with the meteorite ores. This is a PvP contested hex. During times that the hex is contested access to the forge is impossible. The reward for PvP is control over the forge. Not PvP with soft targets. (soft targets being players that do not put up a fight)

This implies there will be a faction system, or maybe guild control, which some may not enjoy. But it's a good example of rewarding successful PvP that uses the limited time as a motivator to curb intent to not focus on the purpose of PvP.

 

If i'm not mistaken, control points will have PVP value; nonetheless zone control mechanics are interesting from guild wars point of view; they draw out the attention of "normal" PVP hexes and brings in an interesting mechanic while working as a way of handling the access to resources. Not sure if rare drop increase should be justified there, but if it's matter of guild (or at least large parties) it could be reasonable. There are other options apart from resources, as Ristra pointed out.

I don't agree with the PVP enchantment and skill tree because that generates segregation; I think that's something undesired for the game... if I want to PVP and you want to PVE it's fine, but a player that invested time in PVP should be able to PVE and vice versa... I'd suggest that this resource "obtainable only by PVPing" could be just another kind resource, being raw materials for producing a certain bunch of items (maybe potions and enchantments) usable by everybody in whatever environment, not just PVP. Let's acknoweldge that at the moment gathering skills are not implemented, so everybody gathers everything... As time goes by, ore will be gathered by miners, wood by lumberjackers, leather by skinners, and so on. This kind of resource would be gathered by PVP'rs while doing PVP.

I think this achieves the same goals you proposed.

 

I wonder why it was dropped? Portalarium chose instead to do the sheep wolves thing and set off this firestorm that never quiets down. The forge seems to be Ok but only if specific to PvP otherwise its one more nail that will be hammered to death in forums and other public places.

(Pure Speculation)
It could be Portalarium dropped it to not have the empty Felucca syndrome. Of course one has to wonder if PvP is so great why is it so destructive to itself when you remove the people (PvErs) who want no part of it?

 

I thought it was going to be pvp related items/materials/and enchantments. I haven't seen anything about devs shooting it down as that is something I still think is going into the game. Not sure about that one. :/

 

You may have misunderstood me as it is a much longer idea and just presented as a bullet brief.
Nothing stops you from PvE anywhere you want to go. You just have more incentive to go PvP when you feel like it with regular resource availability there if you want it. Think of it a s a regular resource unique to PvP just as some resources are unique to specific crafters.

 

Misunderstanding is always possible; i'll try to clarify to see where i missed it. I understood you were proposing some set of skill points and gear modifiers (enchantments) which will only have effect if your opponent is another player. From that point of view, the segregation i'm talking about is not as if i were restricted were to go, but for what my playing time is worth. Now i'll try to explain myself.

If we got in the game "PVP only gear enchantment" (specific gear elements only suitable to fight another players) that may introduce some undesirable gamey factor that i don't think is needed. PVP specific enchantment will be the best gear to fight players, so people interested in both worlds must mantain two sets of gear; the PVP one and the PVE one, because the optimal PVP choice is obvious. PVP enhancement skill tree generates segregation in the other way around, some players may ask "why i don't get points by doing PVE to put them in my specific PVE tree?".

I must say your idea is objetively fine, and it may address the concerns discussed here. Problem is that the points i suggested to be changed in your proposal brings in some things undesired to me, and i think there are other equally fine approaches that may address those concerns without generating further issues. I just feel unconfortable with something as gamey as "PVP only" stuff, and i'm sure SotA can do better; for example, a "enhanced damage/dodge/accuracy/youNameIt against humans" could yield the same result, but it's better integrated within the game from my point of view, even when it still raises the "obvious optimal" issue. In the same way, if the resource is required to craft all kinds of stuff (not only PVP related) it behaves as the other resources; if you use only to create PVP stuff, you're generating two markets.

I know i'm being a bit picky, but i think is a manageable level of pickyness . Oh, and my apologies if i misunderstood you. Even if i did i hope not to miss by a lot... just tried to make fine contributions/modifications to your proposal while addressing my personal concerns

 

OK now I can explain more fully. The gear you have will already be fully PvE capable and is no different than what exists for PvE. There is the capability to add to that regular piece of gear a PvP enchantment, gem or whatever it gets called to add PvP bonuses. So no need for dual sets. That would be an absolute no go for me too.

As for the crafting tree it might generate reverse complaints just as the rare resource argument exists currently. However for the life of me I can not imagine people who hate PvP wanting to craft PvP enchantments or gems for us either.

The idea here is to:

• create an equality of resources used by everyone
• generate an interest in PvP without catering to one side or the other with enhanced general use resources
• give PvP a way to have an effect on the world economy
• give PvP a reason to compete without causing dissent in the world
• eliminate the anti PvP crowd by removing griefing to them

IMHO this will never eliminate all exceptions on both sides. There will always be PvP haters, and PvP griefers. But I would rather marginalize the extreme few than large segments that could influence the success or failure of the game.

 

Heck make the enchantments gems which can be socketed to any piece of equipment. Freely removed and replaced to any piece of gear. This gives no bonuses in PvE so they can not complain about it.

 

Can you name some PvP skill or enhancements that are not something PvE would use? They dropped it because they couldn't find enough to justify this.

It was in a video that they said they dropped this. Referencing the original post to see the intent then the video where the intent was dropped might be important for the topic, maybe I will hunt it down if I get a chance.

 

It would have to work as follows.
Detect the other player is in PvP
Then any combat bonus from a skill, gem, or enchantment could be applied to that combat vs the other player in PvP at that point in time. It does not affect PvE combat or PvM combat at all. Therefore no need for complaints from the PvE, PvM, or RP crowd at all.

 

Sorry I just don't see the point in creating PvP items or PvP materials..... For me it just doesn't really serve any purpose, as a player I want to gather (even if it's in a PvP area) and sell raw materials or crafted items to everyone.

 

That was accounted for in the post explaining the expanded PvP areas with choke points and resource gathering of world wide PvE resources. If there is something in there you feel does not work let me know and I'll address it or see if we can modify it to work for the PvP community.

As for selling to everyone. Not everyone wants every item. So the items gathered can be sold to the interested PvP crafters. Just as wood is sold to interested carpenters.

 

Where would the casual PvPer fit into all this?

 

I would consider myself the casual PvPr. Around 10-30% of my time is spent in that way. I would be at a disadvantage to a hard core PvPr. Just as I am at a disadvantage to a hard core crafter. A hard core gatherer would be at an advantage with more resources and probably have more gold than me. I don't believe one avatar should be the perfect character in a game. That would be self defeating to the game as a whole. For every strength there must be some weakness or we all become lemmings going down to the seaside cliff to throw the game into the sea to drown.

 

All this is doing is enhancing hardcore PvPers with items, between themselves they will be balanced (ie nothing changes)..... Against casual PvPers they will be overpowered but not because of the skill from practice....but because of items.

Sorry, as a true PvPer I just can't buy into this.

 

OK as a hard core PvPr you get the advantage of your time investment. As a casual PvPr I only get the investment of what I put into it. If you are looking for balanced PvP in every single fight. I'm not sure that could be built into any game excepting games where everyone is given identical equipment and never allowed to improve it. Even then PC equipment, lag, arthritis, or other conditions outside of your control never create an equal fight.

 

That's the same thing.....you get better with practice, ie the time you put in.

I don't want PvP to be a game of chess, but equally it shouldn't be orientated around special items that are overpowered when compared to standard items. It doesn't achieve anything other than killing PvP for the casual player.

As I say, I really don't see what your trying to achieve.

 

Its rare, but I agree with envy on this. There should be no difference in pvp/pve gear.

 

E n v y is going down the same line I would have so I will stick to this part. Wouldn't PvE players want bonuses too?

However, E n v y's part and my part will end in the same location. Gear disparity, if players must grind out gear, buff, enchants, etc to be competitive then that new player that enters into PvP ends up a soft target.

What I believe they are going to do is provide rare resources and rare creatures in a PvP hex. To obtain these rares you will need to fend off the other players. At the same time, there will be PvE hexes with rare resources and rare creatures.

The increased abundance of these rares in PvP hexes is due to the 95% - 5% and due to the off balance nature of open PvP in those 95% hexes. PvP will have the increased abundance, this does not mean there will be an unequal opportunity to obtain these rares.

I gather that the idea of needing to go into the PvP hex is for rares is the overall concern. I don't believe that this will be the case, even if that is not true during this stage of development.

 

Overpowered is an assumption. They should be balanced to compensate for the amount of time a PvPr invests into the. This is no different than say a crafter putting time into becoming a better crafter to make a better item that sells for more money and has better bonuses. Based on your logic as I understand it no one should ever get bonuses for the area of game play they invest time in. Do I understand you correctly?

If balanced correctly it enhances PvP but does not overpower it.


@ Ravicus
It does not affect PvE gear or change its value in any way. It allows PvP to occur in a natural environment with a full range of resources without penalizing either crowd. It allows people to specialize in PvP just as they might specialize in blades, pole arms, chaos or air. You choose what to become better in and where you wish to spend your time. Beyond that it becomes a balancing act just like any other skill in the game.