WHY PVP IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Brink1123, Dec 17, 2019.

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  1. Ancev

    Ancev Bug Hunter

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    It was satisfying stealing Cookie Monster's reagent bag on top of Wrong Dungeon entrance in UO. Everyone was dueling and it was his triumphant return back to Lake Superior server, but there was a corpse in front of me and the reg bag was 200 stones.. I was overloaded so I had to portal/gate out to Yew Crypts and hid his loot. His friends chased me through the gate but I managed to kill one or two of them before dropping a corpse myself, I returned and claimed the reagent bag, however.
     
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  2. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

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    That new starwars game uses decay the same way shroud did. But they let you retrieve the lost experience by returning to the guy that killed you and scoring a hit
     
  3. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    Another interesting point of view. I just want to answer on a few statements to comment them and to tell, why I don't think
    1. that my passion has to be honored most of all
    2. that it is not a successful solution to force all players to PvP

    @Brink1123:
    To understand means not to share the same passion. Not sharing the same passion means not, we can't have a good game for every playstyle. But it means to show respect to others and thinking about what is realistic :)


    Do you think, Your passion makes it right to force all other people into it? *smiling*
    Sorry, that's not how the world works ... and even no community should ...

    So that's another explanation, why this game will not succeed?
    So many people told over years, it can't succeedt, because:
    - housing is way too much
    - story is not good
    - quests are broken
    - this is not like Ultima VII
    - this is not like Ultima online
    - skills are unbalanced
    and, last but not least, what you told
    - PvP isn't balanced ...

    I have to determine, everybody above (with her/his own passion!) was wrong:
    The game still runs. And how I see it, playerbase raises - slow, but constantly - BECAUSE the game isn't a 08/15 as most others. And because it has alot to provide. Not only housing, not only possibility to do PvP, not only story, not only quests ...
    I watch new arriving Outlanders coming in and 1. doing the quests, 2. exploring (most of them don't come in for PvP - alot don't know this is possible ...)

    A bunch of people quit also because this game was promised to be NOT another mmo with PvP inside ...
    And I disagree alot: human nature is NOT to fight. Most people don't like to fight.
    Would you suppose, most people forced to war would have liked it? Would you suppose, most people would kill others just for fun? I don't think so.

    What you describe about PvP: Why do you care about PVE players? They don't disturb you in your behavior. So why a PvP player should be allowed to disturb their game play?
    To force everybody into PvP would only help those people, who like to chase and ambush (new) players - for personal fun ...
    --> What about the fun for those players? <--
    Not only I made such "funny" experiences with Ultima online.
    People killed and killed newbies (not knowing, why and what for they were killed!) and had no interest, if this kind of play would be fun for them ...



    @OxNull:
    So, this is interesting! OxNull, have you asked every pvp player? You think, ALL PvP players in this game wants to have Novia 100% pvp?
    --> You want to force people who funded that game for Ultima like story and gameplay (not even thinking about mmo and PvP!) to play PvP? That's not what this game was created for.
    Why are you thinking it's okay to demand this for this game?


    May be @Chris should insert a function for people to say: "I will be always flagged for PvP!" (not changeable!).
    So would this be enough? You could see all PvP players around. But, wait: a "real" PvPer is still flagged for PvP, isn't (s)he? So what would it change?
    The truth behind is: YOU (in the name of ALL PvP players?) are asking for creating a whole PvP world - not caring about the whole story and history of this game, aren't you?

    If there aren't enough PvP encounters, what do you think, why?
    Why should PVE players come in to grant you -and other PvP passionated players- your expected encounter effect (you currently don't get with other PvP players?)?


    And you just can imagine the "whole world should be PvP" thing, only if everybody is forced to PvP?
    There is a simple solution for having the way you like it to play:
    @Chris, please give those FOREVER PvP flagged people full loot. Problem solved!

    "I want to create a PvP only account with all consequences!" - done.


    Let's have a view from above. Let's have, for example,1000 players.
    100 wants PvP. They can flag for PvP. Done.
    Why should 900 other people be forced to PvP?

    Because there are not enough "sheeps" to kill? *smiling*

    --> If a "forever PvP" flag could be set and full loot given, the PASSIONATE PvPers could play like they like it.
    And "try it" PvPer could flag and unflag as they like ... and furthermore have to do without choice in the Shardfalls!

    Let's take another example about "passion":
    Player 1 wants to decorate. Because it is HIS/HER Passion. (S)he can't imagine, how others can't like it! (Those thousands of players who left the game, because they won't like to decorate!)
    Player 2 wants to craft. Because it is HIS/HER Passion. (S)he can't imagine, how others can't like it! (Those thousands of players who left the game, because they won't like to craft!)
    Player 3 wants to play PVE only. Because it is HIS/HER Passion. (S)he can't imagine, how others can't like it! (Those hundreds(?) of players who left the game, because they won't like to play PVE only!)

    FACTS of this game:
    1. The world of New Britannia is based on a story (Sword of Midras tells alot about, the paths and quests also, if you read carefully).
    2. The Oracle protects all Outlanders to be killed from Outlanders! Why? Because that's the rule in this world. Even if you like it or not.
    3. The Obsidians brought destruction and "played" way too much with magic. So the Shardfalls came to the planet. Those shardfalls prevents protection by the Oracle! That's another rule.
    4. To demand FULL PvP for all players makes no sense. I have no problem, if you or anybody demands a more meaningful PvP concept. BUT this concept can not mean to force people into a all time PvP!
    AGAIN: Shardfalls FORCE Players into PvP BECAUSE of the story! This is exactly what they are doing since the shards fall to ground: Preventing the Oracle to protect Outlanders to be killed by Outlanders!

    5. It's really great to have a passion. I also have a passion. But I am not that selfish to demand, everybody has to follow MY passion!

    Everybody can follow her/his passion: PvP, PvE, Story, Housing, Dancing, Crafting!
    That's what I really appreciate in this game. If anybody wants to destroy this system, the whole game diversity will be destroyed!

    So, NO it is not a solution to force 100% of players into PvP. You don't believe me?
    If you played UO, as alot did, you should know what happened to Felucca?
    A huge wasted land for a few people who liked to kill each other ...
    Is that what you are thinking would be good for the whole game? I don't think so ...

    Again: I am not against PvP or Housing or Crafting or ... dancing ;)
    I just say: You can't force anybody to something, what you are convinced is YOUR passion.

    My passion ist story and quests and exploring and housing and sometimes dancing and - if story related sometimes PvP.
    [What @CatherineRose and @Boris Mondragon tried for months! And there was a huge problem: People didn't follow the story, came in just to "have fun" and kill others - not caring about what they intended with the PvP scenario!]

    Important: nobody has to do it the way I want, because I think they have to ...
    I have NO problem with PvP zones, as long as they are explainable, based on story.

    After all those words, I am not supposing most will read, a few proposals to make PvP more interesting (also for a few PvE players) ...
    @Chris, consider this for a more meaningful PvP, please:
    1. PvP flagged towns can be raided (Therefore, we really need bigger group possibilities, not only for PvP!)
    2. Inside PvP flagged towns you can steal and kill. Also Merchants can be robbed. If houses should be possible to burn down? PvP players should decide ;)
    3. PvP Town owner can install Guards (Crown Shop!) to protect important vendors / buildings
    4. PvP Towns can give integrity to PvE people (can be bought from PvP town owners), may be for visiting town and bargain purposes.
    5. PvP Towns will not have the right to place Virtue Devotionals! Therefore no sieges from Cabalists! BUT: PvP town residents could have the ability to siege other PvP towns ;)
    6. PvP Players will earn negative virtue points. Starting a fight (not a duel!), gives negative points. Attacking/Killing from behind gives negative virtue points.
    7. PvP Players can decide to take
    - gear only - gold only - consumables only --> and whatever possiblities you may think about

    AND as a fun factor for PvE and PvP:
    8. PvP Players who kill Outlanders in a Shardfall zone will get a "WANTED" entry in the towns of this region. Outlanders - if PvP or not! - who kill such a "WANTED" person will earn a good amount of gold AND FULL LOOT of this person ...
    --> This would create a bunch of Headhunters visiting the Shardfalls ...


    There are more ideas we can imagine. If just a few of the above would be implemented, I assume, some people would be happy (or maybe not) ;)

    Whatever will change:
    Forcing people into PvP is not a solution for a better game. Felucca proved it ;)
    I understand to have a passion. But if I have a passion for fruit or vegan or sushi dishes, I can't force all other people to eat fruits and vegan or sushi dishes ... even if they don't like ...

    Let's try to have passion for a game for everybody, not something for a kind of "elite" ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
  4. Boris Mondragon

    Boris Mondragon Avatar

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    Very Well put @Paladin Michael. PVE and PVP can coexist yet it takes a lot of work from both sides to find a common ground on which both sides have respect for each other. I tried and feel there was some success with some of our larger battles. Its time for others to carry on the torch as I ran out of the passion and interest needed to RP/Write Stories/Set battles. Like we say in the military: "The Juice is not worth the squeeze". Have fun doing whatever brings you fun. R/Boris
     
  5. Brink1123

    Brink1123 Avatar

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    great points enjoy your game while the servers are still up.
     
  6. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Ok, I can't resist.
    Hey @Brink1123 - I have a question that I hope you can answer.

    Here it is:

    Regarding "Leaderboards" (pic below) - Do PvP kills INCLUDE "Duals" ??

    [​IMG]
     
  7. OxNull

    OxNull Avatar

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    My point with the forced pvp and loot is that it changes the game dynamics. We have an awesome crafting system with sooooo much disposable gear out there not being used. If there was a parallel Novia where you can be killed or kill other avatars and take their gear that would change the game dynamics quite a bit. Lets have a thought experiment.
    Novia is 100% forced pvp and you loose (all?) gear when killed.
    You adventure to a zone that has other unknown ? hostiles. You try your luck and adventure there and either get what you were after or get pushed out.
    Now you are pushed out of a zone, you can't got back. Worst case scenario. I am being camped.
    So you leave the zone and have to go to one of the other HUNDRED of zones out there that are not being used.
    I would guess there are only a handful of zones that are used and MOST other zones go untouched or very light traffic. Being forced to find other parts in Novia to make your way sounds very appealing. We have Norgard, Drachvald, Pernennial coast, longfall, South paladis and everywhere in between and more coming with ep2, we have plenty of land for a world of chaos.
    Now still in this forced pvp world. You have a guild or group of avatars that increase your odds of winning, then there is just more pvp and war.

    I get this is not everyone's cup of tea, and you are right Paladin Michael, this is whats right for ME, there was a lot of "I's" and "I think/believe" in my original post. It is only from my perspective.

    What gives EvE its longevity? You hear about great wars everyone once in a while or about its economy. Its not because of the PvE. Its because of the world of PvP and economy and world that breaths because of it. We have an awesome crafting system and so many items and resources as well as adventuring zones, we just do not have the risk or reward involved to use them all. Forced PvP and loot makes people play differently. Yeah all the top pvp players will be top there too, but they are still killable or else they would not unflag pvp. Its a subtle difference but I think its a big one, for again what "I" thing is meaningful pvp.

    We are looking at this from two different perspectives. With all the possibilities I would not doubt there is a Novia out there void of the oracles protection. And I would say your passion is as equally selfish, I understand not wanting to participate and you are able to opt out. Its just a different view. Some people see PvP is the end game. There is no other end game like Player vs player war. PvE takes time to develop, PvP fills the gaps in between. But my post in this thread was just an opinion as someone who is passionate about meaningful pvp. I understand people do not share that interest. But wishy/washy pvp does not attract and hold numbers so we cant settle for that. I dont think it would work with PvE/PvP it would have to be a Forced PvP everywhere. Partly why the current war system is lacking is you can easily bypass the system. But I can agree a PvP server is a little drastic (still would like to see it), my initial response was because I too am tired of seeing watered down pvp.

    And again, all these are just opinion from my armchair and someone who doesn't pvp.

    Ox
     
  8. Mac2

    Mac2 Avatar

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    Knight online was not forced pvp, you have to go to certain zones to pvp. The only reward was national points that gave your guild ranking. Yet, the pvp in knight online was constant.
     
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  9. Brink1123

    Brink1123 Avatar

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    if your asking me how the current system works I have no idea...... If your asking on my opinion on how it should work ill put it this way, why should we keep a "leaderboard" for PVP. Good pvp does not require a leader board. who cares whos best at pvp as long as its fun, meaningful, and profitable thats all that matters...Duals may be fun for some people but thats not real PVP.
     
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  10. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    It was a pretty straightforward question....

    IE as far as the Leaderboards go -
    [​IMG]

    Do PvP kills INCLUDE "Duals" ??

    Does anybody else know ??
     
  11. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    Its a pvp leaderboard. The whole point of it is to count the deaths between players. Of course it counts duels. Are you being serious?
     
  12. CarlNZ

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    Yes, it just rips the player kills player stats. Doesn't matter how it happens.
     
  13. larissaroo

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    That's perfect.
    I am awful at PvP and when it is forced I can't play a game- no matter how much I like the rest of the content.
    I agree that meaningful PvP should be worked on- but forced PvP is saying that this game isn't for part of the population that loves the game.
     
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  14. Johnwick

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    What if I'm "wanted" and a pve person does not succeed in killing me do I get to keep all the loot on them?? If they attack me are they not considered pvp?? If the answer was yes to this then it's good to go, if it's no, then once again pve peeps, are getting something for nothing!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
  15. Johnwick

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    Unfortunately for this game in particular, there will more than likely be zero good pvp. They waste time and money on things that are catered mostly for people that invest a lot in this game, a lot more than most of us can afford! (Look at pots, huge property deeds Prices on them etc.. those people I feel don't really care about what others want in this game, there may be a few but it is very few. Most of the people who have helped me are not from am expensive background, they barely have anything and yet they help anyway, the upper class only cares about a world they want. Not what anyone else wants! I'm getting off track here, pvp is important to me but I don't see anything making it better for pvp, I only see things improving for pve. No matter what great ideas pvp come up with, they will always be destroyed by those that don't want it. Based on "what they want from it for themselves! Pve.
    It would be nice if for once pvp get together and figure out what would make great pvp without pve interjecting, since most of the time those pve peeps won't even consider flagging pvp! They hate it so much, that they will destroy what good ideas do come from a pvp point of view, just to keep the game safe for them only! No one else matters! To me thats pretty damn selfish! For a game everyone should have the right to enjoy. In the years since this game started I've seen nothing good for pvp! Only PVE. That's the problem us pvp have with this whole pvp vs pve argument. This game will probably never have a good pvp setup, I would bet money on that.

    Problems with pvp in this game are as follows...

    Loot drop sucks, from everything!
    Weapons and armor are too expensive.
    Resources are not as abundant as they should be.
    We can't bank our gold.
    It's too easy to escape pvp status after fighting someone .
    We spend too much time catering to pve people and thier dance parties etc...

    Sometimes the truth hurts!
    This is my opinion from observations since day one. I'll probably get counters on this statement and I'm open for argument, hopefully we will all find a compromise that pleases us all. One last thing, here's an idea. Give something to pve, and then give something to pvp that has nothing to do with either. Balance it all out so pvp gets something and pve gets something not related to either. That way both sides are happy, we can all enjoy the game as one at that point.
     
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  16. oplek

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    Yet it almost always devolves into discussions into how to force the PVErs into PVP against their will.

    "Stop interjecting! We're busy deciding your fate!"

    It's already come up a couple times this thread. That's the point I interject. If I'm "selfish" for wanting the product I bought remain the product I bought, so be it.
     
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  17. Johnwick

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  18. Johnwick

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    I can actually respond the same way! Once again nothing was solved! Come back with suggestions man, not contradictions that I can contridict! Solutions are what we all need
     
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  19. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    I think this would depend on the general rule made for what "PvP flagged" means in case of death.
    I would suggest same rules, of course!, for both!
    If someone's flagged for PvP and the rule is, for example, to lose 10000 gold for being killed, so it be.
    [Somehow it should be granted, people can pay their debt ;) ]


    --> and you're right: storage of gold should be granted like it is still for Crowns. If not, it would be very important to have a max of Gold someone could loot!


    Besides, I would suggest (in a game where Virtues are meaningful) the possibility to earn back virtue points, if you take just a part of what you could take from somebody.
    I think alot of possibilities ... we will see, what can be done for this part of the game next year ...
     
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  20. Johnwick

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    I honestly don't want anyone to flag pvp if they don't want too. I also don't want to have to play the game the way PVE, wants me too! (Dance parties, dress up or running with a group) let everyone start out with 2 character slots,
    One for pvp only
    And one for pve only
    Don't make one character have to pay the price of your other one.
    There are times when I don't feel like pvp, but would rather play PVE. I enjoy both equally.
     
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