Why the guild war system is Wrong for Role Play

I just have to attempt one more try to get my reason out in which I think the current implementation of Guild Wars is wrong from a Role Play point of view. Being that one of my sole reasons for backing this game to the extent I did as early as I did was for RP/PvP. It was the main reason I purchased a town. Now having said that it is extremely important to me and is currently why my account is up for sale. The dream I have is shattered basically. I will attempt to clarify.

When I role played in UO we did RP/PvP. We had RoE (rules of engagement). These rules where set in place by RP guilds coming together on terms of war. Looting preferences. The gear that could be used. Roles where important. Everyone could only use gm armor. No enhanced weapons, no enhanced armor. Mages could only carry certain amounts of reagents. Warriors could only have so many bandages and potions. This made the battle fair for everyone. There was no gear advantage.

Having said that, guilds when they go to war are flagged for open pvp. This totally negates any RoE that one could have. You will be in your gm armor with no bonus trying to fight on even terms with another guild but anyone can jump in, wearing better stats armor and weapons. They will not care about if you planned your battle, if you are doing an escort quest, if you are on a diplomatic mission, they will simply just kill you because you are flagged. They only want to get rankings on leaderboards for the most part. I know there are some good players out there also, but we know how role play gets griefed.

Here is an exert of the RoE from Europa. If you notice for each class it has limitations placed upon it as agreed upon by guild members in the Role Play group.


Rules of Engagment

Many people ask why we put these in place but you have only to spend some time with us to see that it gives us all a chance to thrive no matter our riches or our luck.

Rules of conduct:

Please use common sense and consideration for other players at all times.
No obscene language or use of OOC insults will be permitted.
Stay in character at all times.
Guild abbreviations must always be visible.
All players must carry a yellow bag in which items available for looting or stealing must be kept. (For more information please scroll down to the ‘Thieves and Stealing' section below.)
If there is any complaint, grievance, or other issue with a player or guild, it must be dealt with between the respective GMs.
If you are recalling or gating in to or out of a role play town or area please do so discreetly (e.g. behind a building or tree.)
Please note: The city of Trinsic is considered ICly to have an enchantment over it which distorts travel spells, therefore any travel to or from Trinsic must be done outside of its walls.

General battle/fighting rules:

If you intend to enter hostile ground (territory belonging to another guild) with more than 5 members, please alert the relevant GM/AGM beforehand.
Try to ensure members are not AFK and are willing to enter into a fight before engaging. There are many alternatives to knocking someone out if it is clear they do not wish to partake in combat - use them. (e.g. take them prisoner, allow to flee, give a warning etcetera.)
If you are knocked in battle, you must wear a death robe for 30 minutes. You may not rejoin the fight.
If you do not wish to be taken prisoner it is advised you vacate the area.
The use of ‘alts’ in a battle is forbidden. Once knocked you may not rejoin the fight on any character.
Those wearing death robes are considered to be ‘casualties of war’ you may not attack them.
All stealable consumables are forbidden in RP-PVP. (These include but are not limited to: balms and lotions.)
Trapped crates are forbidden as a means to break paralysis.
Imbuing may only be used to put the solitary property of 'Mage Amrour' onto a bone helm. All other uses of imbuing are forbidden.
Gargoyles are forbidden from flying during RP-PVP.
The use of magic weaponry, jewelry and armour is forbidden. (This includes items made with runics or imbuing even if they do not contain magical properties.)
Mounts are not permitted in battles or fights.
Please note:
- [KT] (The Knights Templar) are permitted to ride mounts at all times when following their internal rules.
- Some guilds allow the use of jewelry with 'Nightsight' or 'Luck' as the only property.

Weapon/Skill Class Restrictions:

Magery, Necromancy, Spellweaving, Mysticisim and Bushido

All offensive area spells are forbidden.
Mages are limited to one summoned creature at a time; these may not include deamons, blade spirits or energy vortexes.
Spellweavers using Dyrad Allure may not use high end pets such as Orc Brutes, Ogre Lords, Titans, Cyclops etc.
Necromancers may not summon death adders.
You may not animate a revenant.
Lightning strike is forbidden.
The following Mysticism spells are forbidden: Nether Cyclone, Rising Colossus, Hail Storm, Cleansing Winds, Mass Sleep, Animated Weapon.
The following Spellweaving spells are forbidden: Natures Fury,
Wildfire, Thunderstorm, Essence of Wind.

Archery

A minimum of 70 poisoning is required to use the special 'Serpent Arrow'.
Archers may not use the lightning special move.
All quivers (excluding the Quiver of Infinity) are permitted. (You may only use bows crafted with regular wood whilst wearing any quiver.)
Bows may be made with Oak, Ash and Yew wood but may not be used with a quiver.

Tamers and pets

Tamers may use either two 1 slot pets or a single 2 slot imp in rp-pvp.
If a tamer is knocked in a battle he is no longer able to give commands to his creatures.
If a pet is knocked in battle it may not rejoin for 30 minutes.

Conflagration and explosion potions

These are only permitted at the discretion of a guild’s GM (and internal rules regarding their use must be in place.)

Poisoning

You must have a minimum of 70 poisoning to use it in combat.
The use of parasitic poison is forbidden.
The use of darkglow poison is forbidden.
The same rules also apply to shurikens and fukiya darts.

Ninjitsu

Ninjitsu users may not use giant serpent, bullfrog, ostard, llama, wolf, bake-kitsune, unicorn, or ki-rin forms in or to flee combat, unless the character is permanently in that form, eg RPing a guard dog.
Poisoned shurikens/fukiya darts may only be used by those possessing 70 poisoning (see above for rules on poisoning.)

Thieves and Stealing

As well as the contents of a yellow bag the following items may be stolen: Any amount of gold, gems, bandages, petals and common potions, books, food, drink, non-magical jewellery, arrows, bolts and any amount of magery and necromancy reagents.
Tinkers, Tinkering and Tinkerables

You must possess 70 Tinkering skill to use a Golem in battle.
You must possess 70 Tinkering to use a Clockwork Scorpion in battle.
Leather Wolves and Vollems are forbidden in rp-pvp.

Assassins/Assassinations

Assassins should always make sure their victim is not afk before attacking.
Should the assassination fail, the victim may not be targeted again for 24 hours. Failure of an assassination can be classified as:
-The assassin failing to drop the target and retreating.
-The victim fleeing the scene and avoiding defeat.
-The victim defeating the assassin.


--At times GMs may arrange alternative rules between one another, if this takes place you will be alerted. However, in all other occasions the rules apply exactly as they are written.--

Combat rules apply only to RP PvP, not to PvM (or non-PvP RP: in other words, if you want to use parasitic poison against an ogre, or have a cu-sidhe following you around in town, that's fine; just don't do it in combat).


* The Rules of Engagment were created and updated and voted on by many differnt GMs of Many different guilds over the many years that Europa RP has been around

@Elgarion De Kahli , @FireLotus , this is what I was trying to say in the IRC.

 

In UO, this is how I remember it worked. Mind you, I played in 1999, but we had large guild battles and wars with other guilds that anyone else could have jumped into, at any time. The only thing that is missing from this game is a criminal system, so I'm not quite understanding the issue here. Is this some reference to how guild wars were done on Trammel? I left UO shortly after the split.

 

Yes, after the split between felluca and Trammel, this was possible. As you stated before there was only felluca so yes everyone was targeted. Afterwords RP benefited as they could do rp/pvp guild wars. They were only flagged to each other if the guild was at war (while in Trammel). This let people do rules of engagement and plan scenarios to role play to. Be it to protect the ambassador from ambush on the way to a diplomatic mission, or rescue a soldier that is being held captive. Its the role play in a role play game. Unfortunately not everyone enjoys role play and people do their best to grief events like this, so its sad to me that this will not be supported. I understand though that this guild system in place now is popular for many, and I do not want to deny them of it. I am just merely stating my stance on it.

 

With the options to play with friends instead of full multiplayer, can't you essentially decide who you are playing with? Therefore you could still easily implement any kind of RoE and RP events without outside interference or unwanted players jumping in. Your RoE rules would only work in Trammel in UO, so wouldn't the "play with friends" option work the same way Trammel did and solve the problem you have with guild warfare?

 

I asked that question in the hangout last night. I was really hoping this would be a solution. Initially Starr said that this would be possible. However Chris then told him that it really is not possible because you wont have just friends, you will have friends of friends also, sort of like the 6 degrees of separation. So anyone friended to the people in the battle could be pulled in also. It would be a dog pile and sloppy.
Start at 7:18:25

 

Not only that but it would require everyone on both sides to friend each other. A major hassle for everyone in larger groups. Imagine having 2 guilds going to war.. each with 50-100 members participating. That alone would make using friends-only mode for something like guild warfare impractical. The current implementation as it stands only really supports the hardcore PvP free for all. Which isn't very useful for any planned conflict with conditions.

 

Maybe instead of play with friends, they could add an option "play with allies and enemies". Would only allow guilds at war to play together?

 

Ya, I just can't wrap my head around the why for the current design. Chris mentioned lots of stuff on they why's, and I am in no position to argue because it was all rather jumbled information for one and also I have no idea how difficult things are to implement technically. I think the current implementation is pretty much set in stone, but I would hope some how they would consider rethinking such an important role play element.

 

Guildwars as it is now is pretty much not useful at all, it is just a first pass though.

 

Ya, I would love something like this, but I think they have the pvp tag tied into all aspects of pvp so if for any reason you do warfare, besides dueling, you will be flagged for open world pvp. Chris stated in the hangout that this is by design and pretty much bulletproof, so I hold very little hope on change.

 

Ya, I hope things can change, but the way Chris talked in the hangout it is pretty much set in stone, well for my scenario at least. I think for the open world part would be fun for Hardcore pvp people.

 

I had just assumed it was a first iteration issue. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense to have a feature like this where you can't control the conditions. It's no different than just flagging for PvP.

 

Time to break out the hammer and chisel.

 

You might not have had the chance to watch the video yet but in that last hour Chris talks about his bulletproof plan, and how the pvp flag has to work.

 

I'm going to try to watch the significant parts of the first half in a few hours. Hopefully I'll get through it all by Friday.. but this is really starting to sound like one of those features where I just don't agree with the core thinking at all.. much like ransom.. which is a little odd I suppose for reasons I won't get into cause it's off topic and I'm starting to ramble.. but anyway.. on this topic so far.. agreeing 100%.

In some areas I think there needs to be a certain natural way of things.. but in others.. like this I think players need that control. In part because PvP is an area where players introduce an unnatural element to conflict. ie killing each other for a spot on a leader board or for sport etc. Two countries go to war you just don't see 3rd parties rushing the battlefield for kicks.

 

Well even if this system isn't perfect for controlled combat and RP PvP, if there is any kind of PvP leader board with rewards than of course that will have to take precedent. Otherwise it will be abused. And even though it's hard to set up and impractical, the friends only option does exist and will allow for controlled combat to the parties willing to go through the headaches of setting up friends lists.

 

Except as mentioned earlier.. it's not JUST friends.. but friends of friends also.. it's less random but still not a controllable environment.

 

Yes, I understand that, but couldn't 2 Guilds set up their friends lists exactly the same, with ALL the exact same people on it. Wouldn't that make it completely controlled? Sure it's annoying and not ideal, but wouldn't that work?

 

Guild PvP should be between those 2 guilds, period.
Any excuse not to would be to not have to do the coding.
Theres zero reason why guild warfare makes it open PvP... ZERO.

im with ya Rav on this. But it can easily change

 

Wasn't the possibility for the same thing to happen still there in UO? In UO you didn't have to be flagged though you simply had to be in Felucca.