PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

Here's a thought: why not get broken items from players bodies, which you could refine into scrap and then remake same level items from it, maybe two or three pieces of similiar leveled items could be melted down and remade into some gear. Or instead you could get a broken version of whatever items you loot( obvioulsy not potions or stuff like that) and you could put two items together to create the same quality item as it was before you killed the player who had it.
Potentially this could be done with gear that was different levels maybe coming to a mid-point compromise or something similiar.

 

Once again you say that the ONLY risk seems to come from other players.Both Phredicon and I argued this point with you. We both made valid points and waited for a response. So here goes again. The game provides risk. Getting materials, fighting enemies to get to the materials. I don't mean to sound rude, but you can't make a good point by ignoring any arguments against your opinion and then simply repeating your opinion. If you believe that the only risk in a game comes from other players, please explain why. Bring up points made by your opposition and show why you believe them to be false. I am willing to admit to being wrong if you can give a persuasive argument backed by fact.

 

I had recommended something similar a long time before the mega-post. The idea would be is people would drop resources, gold and consumables in addition to either raw materials or broken versions of their equipment.

Maybe it could work along the lines of all equipment takes some amount of damage on death. If items break then that item is lost and the broken item drops (i.e. dead player loses item and it appears on corpse as broken item). However, if the item survives then just a certain amount of crafting resources drop for all items that took damage.

 

PvE presents risks people are willing to accept, but are unwilling when it comes to PVP.

 

People still seem kind of squeamish about NPCs looting them too. A troll rifling through my things would probably make me kill every troll on sight though I might have been more likely to let things slide as long as they weren't aggro (I'm kinda lazy like that.)

 

Well, most ai’s don’t act like humans, where being a jerk is a trait. So, yes, AI is accepted because you don’t have to deal with someone acting out just to ruin your day. You will now say, “no one will do that”, but lets be real for a second here…people will.

 

I can handle monsters looting, IF they are intelligent, equipment using enemies. Bandits yes. Orcs yes. Wolves... uh no. Skeletons... probably not.

 

I'd like to see Headless (if they can use them) harvesting your body parts, especially your head to try and use. They probably wouldn't be able to, but they would be somehow driven to complete themselves....

 

Nice.

 

Depends on what you call risk.

The model I prefer is something similar to Super Meat Boy; absolutely punishing gameplay, requires being tough as nails to beat the challenges... but there is absolutely no penalty for defeat. The player just tries again.

In other words, I really enjoy having a risk of failure — and a high risk at that. But I really dislike having any risk of a setback. Or, I like the game to be difficult, but not punishing.

The old video games that were brutally hard also, in a way, worked this way, more difficult than punishing. In a game that can be finished in 30 minutes, like most of those old games, even permadeath means at most a 30 minutes setback as the player goes again through the rest of the game, and most defeats mean an even smaller setback. In a game with saves or passwords, that setback was even lower.

In that light a wipe in a WoW raid is more punishing than losing the last life in the old video games often regarded as really hard. The time lost to a raid wipe tends to be longer than the time spent replaying the whole older game.

 

It would take awhile to properly explain, but in short: A system that rewards players for harming (and taking stuff from) other players I think encourages negative gaming citizenship. It's not as much about me losing something as it is about someone else getting something for negatively impacting my gaming experience. But it seems like the way they are trying to design it might be very cool. And letting people essentially 'set' their loot level I think would help more people have the experience they want.

 

Very nicley explained, you and I are in agreement then

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

So you want a PvP system that encourages players to "farm" other players for rewards? Leading to silly exploits like killing your buddy 1000 times for blingin l33t pvp gear? No thank you.

 

I don't believe that he said anything even remotely close to this.

I don't see how this comment that is obviously against gaining from killing another player advocates buddy killing to gain things. Did I completely misinterpret this post?

 

Lets make another PVE game then cause iam 100% sure that if pve is that much protected we will have a game end up like all the pve grindfests out there (same thing that happened to UO which was fine and EA "fixed it" to get more 15 years old customers that didnt like their ''toys'' to be stolen by bad red guys..)
Many people here fail to understand that in the long run balance will come by the players which will form guilds and teams so they can defend against hardships either if the hardship called a player killer or a scammer or an ancient wyrm that wants more than one player to kill it.I cant blaim them.If you havent played such a game like UO pre Trammel and you are used to nowdays mmorpg the one thing that comes to your mind is that when you go out of a protected area you will be insta killed by a player and thats not the case.It never was.
Even people that had gold and time at the time of Felluca UO didnt log their PK(if they had) all the time.If the game is balanced like UO was, you need time and resources to support your pvp or pk character.And because no ISP can guarantee you all the time connection ,the one time that you will lose connection for some seconds is the time you will see your character dead and you will have to work weeks to get him back and working.
Also you had far more gold gaining proficiencies to invest on a char than make him a PK which needed tons of time for some skills required.I had a gm blacksmith and 1 hour crafting was like a days worth of loot from my PK.So i logged in my PK when the connection was right and after i was fed up from crafting with my blacksmith or taming and farming instances with my tamer.And i like it that i had the option to spice up my gameplay as much as i loved to fish with my boat after a long order vs chaos pvp day etc.
You cant farm people or places of interest like people have said (which clearly havent played in an open world like Fellucca UO) cause each action has a reaction and people knows which are the PK hotspots and they avoid them if solo or like it was happening,they go as a team ready for some bounty hunting if that comes along
I cant recall like i said a medieval world without all the aspects running around.Murderers and bounty hunters,order(good) vs chaos(bad) guilds etc.
I cant understand the need of people here to experience another clone of the mmorpg motive that goes around nowdays(if the people that want that are the majority) and iam almost certain judging from other games that in the end we will have sandboxed pvp sub world in an overall PVE protected sandboxed world,more or less like wow and battlegrounds and thats boring cause its boring,is the same thing wrapped in a different package with another name simple as that.
Why bother and why dont we make a wow model.After all it introduces housing as well,pve is 100% protected so yeah...

 

PvE does not have to be a grindfest. I can already see where the rest of this post is going though....

Yup, it went there. Balance NEVER came to UO. It was also very common to get insta-killed when you left town. It happened all the time to a lot of people.

Soooo.... What's the point here? You are claiming that you, yourself played in safety when it was convenient for you, but now you wish to deny that to others? That's what I'm reading anyway.

Camping spawns; dungeon entrances; moongates; etc. was extremely common as well. There is scads of evidence to support that this happened.

All of the things that you say never happened and were so great are exactly what forced the development team to split the world and provide safety to players. They may have gone a bit far, but it was a direct reaction to the player base being unable to control themselves.

I believe the development team is trying for something in between. That being said, this game IS NOT A MMORPG!!!

 

It is possible to make an argument without insulting people. When you insult people they stop listening to what you say, so even if you had a valid argument nobody hears it over the sound of insults ringing in their ears.

I can't recall a real life medieval world where people had to deal with headless, trolls, magic, and other fictional hardships. These kinds of challenges would most likely make people band together against a common enemy. Why all the clone of other game comments? Look at the SOTA kickstarter info. They are trying to do new things. Not bring back the old systems.





From DocDoom77
From the SoTA kickstarter (emphasis mine):

Shroud of the Avatar is the “spiritual successor” to Richard’s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online, and offer a bold new approach to integrate them with “Selective Multi-Player”

Lets try and keep the discussion of how we can improve the game and get what we want going. Not just rant that the game isn't a clone of something we used to like so it's hopeless.

P.S. I notice you still haven't responded to the question of why you believe risk only comes from other players. I am happy to discuss our differences in a calm and respectful manner.

 

I honestly don't even know what system you are describing, so I can't really respond. Though since I don't know what you're talking about, it's probably not what I had in mind.

 

Exactly, it is old school, hardcore and challenging but with some innovation....... Now if only death and combat of All styles was done in the same manner.

 

Well i think that doesnt need to much explaining.Personally every single game i have played till now after some point at which i have spent a reasonable amount of time i was able to predict all the suprises that the pve AI had to offer.And that goes from Spectrum's Barbarian till World of Warcraft.Its the same factor that goes on in real society.No matter how many rules and fail safes you have there always will be a person that will bypass them or make a chain of moves that you havent predicted and most of the times wont be one person only.But that doesnt make all the people around you criminals.You as a person with the experience that you obtained,you choose your partners,your friends and the people that you call enemies cause they did something to you.
So yeah a big part of the game being challenging and something different is the human factor and how it manages it.And frankly i see the motive of the game ending up spoon-feeding pve and having pvp as a secondary gimped aspect of the game
My arguement isnt the game to be a clone of UO.But if for example we dont have some resources on dungeons that will be by default pvp flagged i dont see how this game will be different than all the others that pve and pvp is seperated and players can play pve or pvp all the time without something changing their gameplay.Its like the world using different set of rules for each playing style.But the world should have a fixed set of rules and people based on their gaming experience and their connections should choose a gameplay that they like and try to thrive in the world.And for that the world should have everything in it and going on in the same time.It needs the pk,it needs the bounty hunter,it needs the crafter or the pve adventurer that likes to go in dungeons