SPO and SP Offline

Thanks for responding Lord British,

Some of the concerns I have are with the NPC behavior in the currently implement quests. Hopefully the things I list below are just due to the fact that we're in alpha and so they haven't been touched up yet, but I just want to point them out, in case this isn't on the dev radar:

1. Quest NPC interaction/visual/reponses is lacking
For example the sick guard in Owl's Head is standing in full uniform - he should be in bed with bandages on (like the sick people in Ultima 7). Then ideally when he is healed he should be visibly better (at least for your character). I know this would mean different people viewing him different states in multi-player but I'm sure our talented dev team can put in a flag for that? Sure others will be busy chatting to him trying to heal him, but at least when I view the room/scene he looks like he's healed a bit.

Another example of this is in Owl's Nest, when you free the guy there from the bandits... there's some kind of weirdness that goes on and he never really looks free. I think he should 'run off' and then you don't see him again there (in your view of the world)... if you enter that area with another player, they can likely see him (if that is a multiplayer scene), so there would be complications there... once again, I would be happy if the other player was seeing him and I wasn't in the same scene.

I really need to get a sense that the world is responding to my actions - so when I heal someone, they are healed... if I kill a dragon (or other boss) it is gone from 'my view' of the multiplayer world. Now there are challenges with that of course - I would love to hear from the team how they are tackling these kind of things. A hangout on this would be awesome, or some kind of megapost.


2. NPC facial features / animations
They seem quite dead and without emotion. I hope there will be some kind of pass on the NPCs to animate them more and have them react to you speaking to them.

3. Portraits or 'zoom in'
Would be nice if your camera 'zoomed in' on the NPC when you started chatting (if you've played The Witcher you will know what I mean). This would get around having the make portraits for all the NPCs but create a more intimate chat. Of course issues with multiplayer if many people are chatting as you might be zooming in on the back of there heads... the clever dev team might have a way around this.

 

I can respond to some of these:

1. Quest NPC interaction/visual/reponses is lacking
This is because the animations for these responses is not in yet. As we add animations and work on NPC behavior more, these will be updated.

2. NPC facial features / animations
Not sure were this is/if this is on the schedule, but again, animations... We also don't have all the NPC models complete at this point, so many NPC's look alike/are based on the same models. This will improve as new models are added.

3. This is not on the schedule for Episode 1, but we do know it is something many of you want.

Remember, you are NOT seeing the game in it's final form. Many of the concerns I am reading in this thread really boils down to the fact that you guys are seeing an early part of the Development process (which most gamers have never seen before) and judging what the final game will be by that small piece. For example, NPC schedules are not in yet, but they ~are~ being worked on. And right now, animators are focused on player animations, particularly combat and skills. That's not to say NPC animations are not on the schedule down the road.

We can't do everything at once. So just remember, you are seeing a work in PROGRESS, and as we make progress, you will see more and more content in each release.

 

Thanks Fire that is something we do need to keep in mind for sure.

I think everyone's excitement just get the better of them.

 

First, let me say thank you to rune_74, et. al. As someone who pledged only on the single player Ultima games I was beginning to feel lost here.

I know people throw out the line that SPO will be no big deal to implement and that we will have to wait until release so we don't spoil the fun. I don't buy it for several reasons:

1) Some of us would consider it fun to test story elements as part of the dev process and make suggestions. I personally wouldn't care if it spoils part of the story for me because I get it for the first time in the dev process or post release - doesn't matter to me when I get it first. Plus, I get to participate in help testing the story. Yes, fears about things posted on wiki abound, but it's going to be out there anyway day 1 for release, so whether it gets out in advance or not, it won't impact those who don't have early access to the game. Most gamers know not to look if they want a pure experience. Is anything not leaked these days?

2) For those of us who like the solo experience, we want to contribute to making the story as good as possible. Not that we need to have creative direction, but test it out - does it flow? Is it fun? Can it be improved? NPC interactions will need a lot of testing too.

3) What about the virtue system? This is a mechanic that could be tested and is important in both modes.

4) What about general descriptions about locations in the world? The way I personally am going to ease into the multiplayer experience is not by joining an already established guild, but by trying to be an active part of some little corner of the actual game world. Role play for me is more fun that way, and I imagine others want to do it too. Descriptions of the world don't ruin the story, but they do add a lot to experiencing Novia. It's going to be too much like a sandbox MMO community if things form just based on outside-SoTA affiliations and generic purposes.

5) Will the unique shape of an Ultima world matter after the story is over? Or will it just be a map and mechanics? I hope there are some unique things that make it an Ultima world still after the solo story is over, but there isn't much discussion about it. After all, this project wasn't started because we needed a new brand of PvP on the market. (Even though it seems like that now.) It was because many of us want to rekindle a sense of adventure, a sense of something Ultima that goes beyond mere sandbox mechanics.

There is more to say! However, the reality is that the things being highlighted are all oriented toward sandbox MMO right now, PvP and player owned towns and such. Great for all those of you who want that... I just hope there is some consideration that people have come to this project from a variety of directions, and maybe some more attention.

 

Respectfully, I don't think this is accurate. I think it's because the community engagement is oriented right now toward those features that make it an MMO. Maybe that's the way it has to be because of the interest from former UO players, the state of the market, the need to raise money, whatever. But I don't think the concerns can be downplayed as not seeing the finished product. The focus during the dev process matters to those of us who pledged, and not just the final game.

Another point with the example of the focus on player owned towns. You guys are free to make that addition. But unless new staff was hired to work directly on that, it means time between now and release is diverted from something else. What is that something? It's fair to speculate that things not receiving focus may be getting slighted. This may not be the case, but the concern is reasonable. Better way to answer would be to respond by laying out what's being done to develop the world, story and single player experience. Some of us place priority on these things. To say it's still early in the development process is a less reassuring and less engaging response.

If there is work being done behind the scenes, why not showcase it? Engage the community with it in a new way. Stephen's shows have been great. Other parts of the dev team could talk about how they are crafting story, creating NPC's, developing schedules... etc.

 

When they work on one mode, all are updated... Do you really think there is a whole lot of coding involved in letting players select who they see and who they don't? That part is finished, and works great, so they moved on...

Like turning on/off a switch, your little bubble just sets a flag...

I exclusively play SPO, and everything that's ever been added to OPO, is there too...

 

With the game so heavily dependent on player interaction (as with the economy), all online experiences will undoubtedly vary dramatically from all offline experiences. The two games will be the same at the core, in terms of story, lore, and combat mechanics, but there will be enough differences between the two that they'll likely feel quite different.

 

While this is great to see, its not the story we are concerned about. It takes more than just a great story to make a fantastic single player game as you know. For example companions were promised but seem to have disappeared. If they are going to be there how are they going to be balanced, if not how will the game be balanced so its challenging for a party but still playable single player? and there are various other issues which have been expressed here.

 

I put the SPO in there because someone the other day thought I was going to be playing offline...so I was making it clear.

When things never get mentioned in updates or anywhere in the forums people tend to think it is not important anymore. I think if some of these things were brought up in the updates there wouldn't be as much concern. I'm not trying to cause any problems, but I did want to bring it up. We have thousands of PVP threads and very few of these types of threads. I'm glad this got some dev attention, because I believe it requires it.

Storyline/=single player....as others have said as well.

 

Thank you for starting this thread

My biggest concern about the SP mode right now is will the story have the same level of depth as some of the older Ultimas. ie. U7 Serpent Isle. With all of the attention given to the MMO part of SOTA, and with the limited budget and time they have ( tentative release date spring 2015 ), I do wonder if they will have the time to make a great SP that would rival some of the masterpieces that Richard churned out in the 80's and 90's.

Edit: I just noticed Richards post after the fact. Time will tell whether the story will receive the attention it deserves. For me, this defines what an Ultima game is.

 

If that is all Single player means to you then you have completely missed the intention of my post.

 

There are competing interests here.

For a long while, through the first 7 releases, PVP had absolutely zero work that had been done on it. This left myself (I don't talk for other people) feeling very much like too much time was being spent on other things that while important didn't need as much attention as they were getting (not if it was in spite of pvp).

Because PVP and combat are expected (and I think rightfully so) to get the bulk of the attention between Release 8 and Release 10 (counting 10 even though it's a polish release), it is understandable to me that you feel somewhat forgotten. However, this going to be the case for anyone highly invested in one of the three legs of the core game (PVP, Housing/Social, and Crafting), and after release 10 the devs will have an opportunity to work on these core systems for the first time in parallel. I think you'll see a huge difference in development by Release 11 and you'll appreciate the huge hurdle the devs have preformed to get to that point.

Until then, you're going to have to do what PVP fans did for the first 7 releases...wait.

 

There have been several essays written about how the single greatest drawback to crowd funding is the fallacy that putting $1, or $45, or $1000 towards a multi million dollar project 'entitles' people to having a say in the direction of the development, or that they are even able to make informed decisions about what would or would not be possible (let alone desirable). Portalarium is headed up by some people with very serious industry experience. They are going to make the design decisions that they believe will serve the project best. It is very nice that they are considering community issues. But ultimately, it is their vision and leadership that will make or break the project. And a lot of the high level design decisions that need to be made can not be made by someone without the ability to see the entire scope of the project.

Because game development is a full time job. There have been some great showcases of features and other things! And I am certain that there are many other things under development that have not been mentioned, not because they are 'secret' but because publicizing every single thing that you are working on would essentially mean that you never accomplish much of anything.

The developers here already offer a largely unprecedented level of interaction. But ultimately, they are trying to make a game. Not spend their days reading online forums, fan emails, and the like.

 

You have a say in that you are encouraged to provide suggestions, which are read and evaluated by the dev team. That is all a contributor should expect to have. No one should expect that say to be in any way binding.

 

Very True Baron. I am not a PvPer, but without it in the game it would have a limited run I'm afraid. The same can be said for any of the core interests. I am a crafter and Explorer by choice, but have no problem letting the developers spread themselves around. The game has to appeal to a wide variety of players, while trying to keep players happy. It can't be done. For everything that is worked on, something else won't get the attention, and someone feels let down. We are only on release 9, and there is a long way to go before we're ready for release. I would like to see what has been done perfected, so that when it comes time for the next item comes up they can devote there full attention to that. But now I'm starting to ramble, but maybe you get my point.

 

Depends on your project management and what you expect to get back.

UE4 is a perfect example of "crowd sourcing" real time and "crowd funding" (pay per month -- they flat out admit that 19$ a month isn't really paying for more than GitHub and soda), yet they also provide a RIDICULOUS amount of community interaction.

To the point where there are 10+ developers answering questions on the forums day in and out. Spotlights at least 1x if not 2x a week, etc...

I am sure someone will be like: "yeah dude, but that is like 100 engineers yo!"

Yeah, and? You think they don't have stuff to do for the engine?

It is because the model of development they chose to do includes that as PART of their job. You can easily incorporate the "old" method of crowd involvement given you plan and make workflows and systems to support it.

 

All those things you mentioned however are very MMO specific. None of them, or very little of them have much to do with Single player other then combat which at the moment is getting balanced for MP. Yes, crafting does, maybe social a bit.....but it doesn't address any of how they are going to make it so you can actually go through dungeons on your own...or with mythical companions(tm). Realese 1 to 10 has focused on the MMO side of the house. There hasn't even been any updates that make you feel like there is going to be a single player side. An outsider looking in thinks this is UO2 in development, I know better then that, at least I hope it isn't.

It has already explained in this thread why story!= single player alone so I won't get into that.

 

@rune_74

I see your point.

The actual story hasn't been released for a reason and surly you understand that. So what you're talking about must be solely the mechanics that help a single player interact and learn that story.

I would say that Release 1 through 10 is all about the building of a world where the story can be added in. Otherwise you're just reading a book. I think you make some good points, but I also think you're asking the developers to give you foreground before the background has even been created. Release 1 through 10 will definitely be the background for this game. Don't discount it as meaningless to the single player experience, that's not reasonable.

 

There is more to a single player game than the story. Skyrim for example is a fantastic single player game but the story is a bit poor and even if it was fantastic the mechanics still need to be developed and tested INDEPENDENT of the story. Effectively what some people are arguing is that the game boots up and you chose either a) MMO or b) chose single player and the story comes down in book form. Once again, how is the game going to balance so that you can play by yourself and still be challenging for multiplayer? how is the difficulty of enemies going to be handled so that its not suicide to play by yourself? how are companions going to be implemented? if they aren't how are you going to be a mage or an archer and keep enemies away from you? how are you going to be a fighter and heal if there is fizzle based on armor? what about utility spells? how will puzzles which are aimed at people working together be adapted for single player? There is so much more than just the story

 

You make a convincing point.

That's a a good set of questions and I agree they haven't really answered those questions accept to say that they didn't make a single player game and they didn't make an MMO but instead made a hybrid that has never been made before. I'll have to read RG's post again to see if there's anything more substantial to add to this.

Ok, I reread RG's post...

You're not going to like this, I interpret his reply to mean in part that Shroud of the Avatar is not strictly a single player game. Therefore, to compare it to Skyrim now or in the future is an argument that you can not win.

That doesn't mean that you can't ask for all the things that you have in your quoted list above, I think you can and should. But it does mean that you have to leave yourself open to the idea that when you play the game it might not be the traditional single player experience that you have played in the past.

That's the reality. And as I concede that you make good points and have every right to fight for the individual features you're describing. You don't have a right to claim that SOTA is anything but what it actually is.