Combat/Skills/Spells video chat!

nothing I said was wrong... read it again... chaos+air... meaning a combo.

http://sotawiki.net/sota/Chaotic_Backdraft

If you are getting CC'd by Gust to knock you out of combat you can pull the person back to you... CC = crowd control... controlling their movement or inability to move is the most effective form of this. Roots lasts long enough. It doesn't need to be a 1 minute CC like you get in WoW to be effective if you time it right. That's my two cents.

Also that same spell is great vs the current complaint that monsters run away too fast... if you hit them with chaotic backdraft and ice spells they'd have slower movement and be closer to you. This combat system is about thinking and playing smart not about smashing random things and hoping for the best. It rewards thinking gamers.

Please don't be aggressive toward my posts. I do a LOT of research and have a LOT of information about this game. Most of the time when I post something I'm either exactly right or really really really close to exactly right. I don't like misinformation and you have a lot of it in your post that was aggressively against mine, I don't.

Smelling salts isn't a counter to CC spells only to ones that put you out... there are skills like Knight's Grace ( http://sotawiki.net/sota/Knight's_Grace ) that also counter them. Your claiming that smelling salts is the only counter to a stun like CC is wrong. Avatars also build up a resistance against stuns the more they get hit with them. So there's a built in passive counter.

You block spells by CCing the person when they go to cast it or doing enough damage to them that it interrupts. The interrupt was based on the amount of damage done /2 = chance to interrupt so hitting hard during a spell cast is a good way to stop it.

Magic isn't like an arrow... I don't believe it should have a projectile appearance for all spells. Several that do have this in game do so for a purpose. These can not only be interrupted (a form of countering) but also dodged (another form of countering) by moving out of the blast radius.

Resistance is also a counter... it's a passive counter not an active but it's a counter. Having ACTIVE counters needs limitations or combat is overly frustrating. But to be very clear if you have resistance for 50% of mitigation that means you're countering 50% of the incoming damage.

You have one redeeming line in all of this. You know the truth it appears. You know that you have to do many things to counter many things and not everything will get a counter. That truth is good. It's healthy. I think that some things shouldn't be able to be countered and should only be a DPS race or the fights would last too long for the average player.

The most painful things like earthquake and ground pound and rawromgfacerolldie! skills are usually able to be countered with good positioning and range tactics... staying at the right range from a person will disable some skills from being used or put you at an advantage when trying to dodge the effects.

Hope that clears things up for people reading this who aren't aware.

 

I'd still like to see reagants used to modify the effect of a spell, instead of fizzle reduction, would open magic up to custumization in a way no other game has attempted.

 

You're wrong. Totally wrong. I'm not being aggressive, I'm being factual. We can agree to disagree. But I think you're completely wrong in your assessments. I'm not going to go tit for tat with you as you change what you meant to say or didn't say.

The bottom line is that this is a DPS war devoid of meaningful blocking and counters. If you're debating that with me, you're wrong.

If Chris were debating that with me, he would be wrong. This is quite literally a sky is blue grass is green type of reality here. I can name probably 20 things off the top of my head that have no counter. I can name probably another 5 that have resistances, but no counter (they're not the same thing). I can name only a few things that can be blocked.

If we want a DPS war, we have one and the game is being created by design. If that's not what we want, then we have a long way to go before we get to a place where players rely on skills and not levels. That's just the reality we live in. To deny that, and it certainly appears you're denying that, is...not helpful.

 

reagents should be like a multi part ammunition with out you cant cast tier2 or higher spells.

 

i just loled at this.... i can imagine you doing the finger-point on the first two, two word sentences...
your overall attitude is kind of aggressive, actually. i think that is where they are perceiving it, no matter your intent. not pointing fingers here, you'd bite 'em off *chuckle*

 

I certainly could've written a more measured response.

It's nothing personal against Duke Violation, or anyone else. We just have different opinions about combat.

If someone said "I love DPS wars and this is great!" that would be one thing. But to say this isn't a DPS war and that viable counters are well established in the combat system, that's just something I can't stand by and let go undefended. It's, in my opinion, a disservice to the reality of our testing and feedback. And the moment we accept that narrative as being anything but completely false, we get the combat system we deserve. And I for one would like to think we deserve much better than this.

 

Also use very expensive reagents to cast more powerfull spells. For example a rare fire opal that helps cast fireballs at 2x damage. Good ideas.

 

You'd both be wrong btw.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

@Chris, in my point of view.

- All spells should require reagents.
- Add a button on the mouse to block with shield and weapon.
- It would be interesting potions, resources and reagents are lootable.
- The highest level character will win a PvP fight. Too predictable.
- At lvl 40+ (90+ in polearm), I am no longer able to see mage that kills me in two spells when i hit for 3 or 4 with my BIG halbard.
- I know you were inspired by the AoC game for the combat system. But frankly, the AoC combat sytem is really more dynamic and enjoyable.

Pre Alpha Rasta Power !!!

Keep the god work @Chris , the game goes in the right direction.

Thanks for reading.

-Abydos

 

Most part i can tell from many game magazine reviews that all with out any exception say all the same.
The combat is not fun not enjoyable and not state of the art.
The animations needs ton of improvement (which i can defend by saying well its pre alpha)

To make it clear this is what i got from gaming magazines and reviews so far.

I think spells T2 an higher should require reagents. Wy? Well when a mage runs out of reagents he need to has tools to farm and defend him self and there for he needs his T1 spells.
I really would like to see an aktiv block mechanic but, with autoatack ingame completly usless and i dont like starrs decision at all to keep it. Cous if you keep auto attack you cant mix it up.

 

I must jump in, and I don't see why the thread cannot be debatable also and I would think Chris agrees, well hopefully, at least it is all in one place. At first I thought we should have rules and follow the rules, but this is too important to not have peoples comments included. It affects the outcome of combat. We want to finally get some things going in a direction instead of bouncing around and let it stay on course. Feedback on this is so important, especially if people hasve tested it out to have current feedback on what is in the game right now. Ok my 2 cents on that.

Also I am for regeants in spells, it worked fine in UO, they were everywhere and found on bodies and yes they were regional, like found in the area that they should be and they were buyable. This would make our vendors valuable which makes it important to scour the regions and explore the game. Getting ready for battle was always important in UO. Making it necessary here is a great counter to rushing into battle unprepared. I'm in agreement with knowledge about regeants or anything gives a boost to ability to get them, still make them plentiful if used and buyable. Also please make them weight much less. A pound for a reagent is way too much. Also complexity has to be considered. Not everything has to be complex. I play single player games on easy mode usually for the story and I will look up hints if it is too difficult and still enjoy playing the game, that is just me.

Chris will get the best idea of the overall picture from reading this thread. In the long run it will be what it will be, but at least we have this feedback by the community to define what the game and combat will be. The developers will make the final choices and we will adapt.
edited

 

-Could you explain the experience bars, How do I gain experience?
-How do I use experience to gain in skills?

-Do my skills affect Auto Attack?

-What are your plans for Free Attack?
-What would you do to make Free Attack better?

Please, don't listen to anyone who says "get rid of Auto Attack", they haven't figured out how to turn it OFF, so I don't think they're worth listening too...

 

I'm a bit on the fence about whether the game has blocking and counters 0r not.

On one hand I do see games (like TESO, for example) with clearly active blocks/counters, so active that they are matched to a key and you have to hit the key if you hope to block.

SOTA, on the other hand, might on its surface seem like that is on autopilot. There are shields but it can feel like their base implementation is simply a modifier calculation behind the scenes moreso than requiring an active key board press.

That said, SOTA does have skills to roll, to actively parry for a time, etc. that are triggerable skills. Given that, I think it is hard to say there are no blocks or counters to DPS whatsoever. It may be a question of how effective they are instead.

 

My two cents... Asking for more and more complexity is counter productive at this stage. It may take years to perfect the various skill trees, counters, and etc. Keep it simple, but good at first. Whatever system we do start with should be complete, understandable, and allow for different builds. All the suggestions for the mage build are really great, but alas I just think there is no time to ever get all the complexities programmed. Keep it simple at first, interesting, and effective. The growth of the system can come over time.

 

A couple of questions relating to believability and immersion in combat:

1. Currently, when I hop on a piece of rock not even my own height, and do a ranged attack at a nearby mob in perfect line of sight, I hit but do no damage. This is apparently a special mechanism intended to prevent some sort of "abuse" that is made possible by a) mobs not behaving intelligently (e.g. running away if they can't climb to get me) and b) mobs spawning at the exact same location every time. The current "solution" is therefore not addressing the root cause, and is not only utterly unbelievable (I can move 2 meters sideways, sliding off the rock and immediately start making normal damage), but also takes away a great part of strategic thinking that I have always considered to be a part of ranged combat. What's your take on this, what can we expect in the future?
2. Currently weapon durability and weapon performance are not associated in any way, so I can perform in combat equally well with a 5/100 weapon as with a brand new 100/100 weapon in perfect condition. The (non)believability implications are obvious, but this also encourages players to treat weapons as a commodity: as an example, suppose I use halberds and have 6 iron/copper ingots. I can choose to make a two repair kits, or I can "use up" my old halberd until it breaks, scrap it and make a brand new one. The same applies to almost any basic level weapon/armor (not so much to advanced ones based on compound materials). Associating the weapon performance to its durability figure would address this in a very intuitive and natural way. Are there plans to do this?

 

Is combat being balanced with PvP or PvE as the focus?

 

heres my input on the new system,

when you go down a tier on the skills, it should be better than the one before it, for instance Healing - Healing touch does 8 to 10 healing, healing ray should be 16 to 20, and Healing burst 20's to you, and the party your with.

If your wearing cloth and a 2 handed hammer hits you it should do top damage! If your in leather mid damage, if your in metal minor damage, On the flip side if im wearing metal armor ice arrow should just bounce off your chest, or shatter on it doing minimum damage. if a fire arrow hits, same thing it should spread across armor, minimizing damage. If you wearing leather armor ice arrow should do med damage with a cold damage DOT, and fire arrow should do med damage and then ignite the leather armor and burn for a DOT time period, the armor should be weakened in the process since now it is crisp and smoking. If hit with either of those spells in cloth max damage should be in place. Its just cloth it can ignite and it doesnt protect you against the cold!

Now higher level Ice and Fire spells such as fireball should do a lot of damage, since it is a huge incendiary explosion, cloth should just burn off Leather turn black and charred, and metal heated to point where it melts and creates weak spots.

But every next level of spell/skill should be much powerful than the last.

Also we as heavy armor wearers need to have a skill that will make us close the gap between a running mage, or Archer and us, body slam is fine but its such a small area of coverage!

Obsidian Arrow in the earth tree should do a lot more damage than it does, 10 to 12 is lame damage if you get that high, normally it pops off about 7 to 10. (Definition -ranged Earth attack that can ignore armor!)

Banish undead should effect a number of undead around you, instead of just one!!!

Tap soul is not really needed until higher levels to drain health and put in mana. you can use it about 3 times before you have to wait for health to recharge at lower levels (much more effective when you have higher level of health!

Immolation should last longer.

Soothing rain being a 3rd level tier should heal more than 1 or 2 per second.

2 handed weapons should do massive damage to things as well as their armor and weapons.

Dual wielding should do more damage, instead of just using the bonus's on the off hand the off hand should hit for damage as well.

Ground Pound should put out a heavier damaging shock wave since it is the last skill in the tree!

Shield of crystal should last longer.

In the focus tree inner calm and follow through should be under train intelligence. Quick swapping has nothing to do with either.

I would love to see a spell that sucks mana from your opponent! Or drain health and a counter to it (such as sucking it from your opponent and putting it into your pool of either.

Ok i think thats enough

Thanks Chris

 

Oh one more thing when starting off can we have a choice of weapon to start off with? Im not a swordsman, buti have skills in swords that are a pain to lose! Id rather have those points in another weapon!

when will my Phoenix do as much damage as other summoned elemental's?? right now hes only a decoy!

 

Will the roll to left and right and jump back wards ever be expanded on?
will they be moved in to the skills tree?
do you think We would ever get to actively doge spell bolts, or arrow bolts? Perhaps even get missed by melee oh wait you already do..(only do to targeting)
Have you guys discussed any kind of active blocking? like Darkfall? or will it be more like Asheron's call with a passive block %?
If it is like AC will there be magic blocking shields or abilities in the tree?
Or if its active,What will the effects of that be? stam drain,slower maneuverability, a slight delay in swing times.. just some out side thoughts..

Looking forward to this chat can't wait to hear some of the answers to the quests every one has posted. hoping to see some pvp love out of this. At least some insight to what your thoughts are on the pvp as a hole big picture sort of thing.

 

Ugh. Nix the DPS race. Two skillful players should be able to pound on one another for a long while. A skillful player should be hard to kill, even if ganged up on.