New Grind Solution

I think it is.. it's just most of that stuff isn't in yet. I really think a lot of your concerns will be met in the course of time. Most systems are still very bare bones.

I think perhaps this is your biggest challenge. It's hard to get a clear picture. To draw an art analogy it's like trying to figure out what a painting is supposed to look like when it's half done. Nothing 'pops'.. everything is fuzzy. there's little actual detail.. to the untrained eye all you see is a mass of color.

Perhaps I have a more positive outlook because game development has been a keen interest of mine for a long, long time. I've gone to the GDC at least 4 times.. sat in design workshops with actual pros in the field.. (let me tell you.. breaking down Oblivion into a card game is an interesting experience).. worked on my own game designs (which I really should actually finish one of these days).. got a BA in "Game Art & Design".. well.. ok the curriculum was pathetic I admit but I still got the degree..

well the point is I feel fairly comfortable with the process as we're watching it unfold.. I don't expect others to relate to it in the same way I do.. but I don't get the same feeling of heading down the wrong path.. more like it's just difficult to really see where that path is getting us to where we want to be. Like that feeling you're lost when you're not. It's just taking longer that you thought to get where you're going. If that makes any sense to you.

 

That makes sense, but don't really apply to where I'm at.

I had a lot of time to play this week, but because there's a wipe coming up I just couldn't get into the game and grind. So I tested out other things and wrote a lot of feedback. But it's frustrating to be able to put time into the game and yet not want to play. I can only assume that I'm not the only person that feels this way and that's why I was motivated to talk about it here.

 

I would say this is the biggest reason we don't have a bigger test audience at this point in development (not because the game too much of a grindfest). There is always a wipe a few months around the corner.

 

Believe it or not.. thanks mainly to wipes I have a similar issue. I combat it by setting goals. I now run 3 weekly events, at least one designed to further long terms all the way through launch. I find things I can do now that I (and sometimes others) will benefit from later. Setting goals I'm interested in helps me want to play and still feel productive despite the wipes.

 

You're probably right to some degree. But doesn't that speak to the fact that grinding is inherently "not fun"? I mean if it were fun then people would want to do it right?

Another problem would be the barrier to entry. The new player experience and the learning curve are pretty steep. But I think to ignore the grind entirely is something we do at our peril.

 

Yeah, I find other things to do. But I'd really like to test some of the higher level game.

I'd love to go fight a dragon or a troll. I'd love to give feedback on high level pvp. But I can't unless I'm ready to be bored out of my mind, and really even then I'm not sure I'd make it to level 70 in time before the wipe.

 

Well all I can do is reiterate my position that it is better to make it more fun.. than easier. Some people really know how to maximize their acquisition of XP also.. honestly I don't know how they do it.. but I have at one point gotten into the 60s.. I plan to 'hunting' a lot more before the wipe but I'm not holding my breath.. I'm 38 now..

If I were you.. I'd look at ways build up your town to try to draw your interest in the meantime.

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos
When you refer to the "grind" that you detest so much, I assume that refers to your being forced to kill creatures in order to gain the XP's necessary to raise your skills.
Am I correct in that assumption?

 

I think for clarity's sake we should add the word 'mindlessly' to forced to kill creatures...

 

Print out or save a screenshot of your question. Save it for 10 years. Pull it out for a good laugh then. Yeah, I should get 50exp for a mob while you get 100exp b/c im better then you at Pve... Players who are better at pve efficiency should be rewarded. You said you barely hit 40? I installed this game on 12/6/2015. I played maybe 3? hours all of last week. So i played for 2 weeks basically. Ive explored the entire map, most dungeons, tried crafting out mining silver for hours in gem graff, mined copper/iron/wood for hours, explored nearly every scene, tried agriculture, and im 56 without even trying to "level". You must be purposely not trying to level, or as a poster stated a couple pages back you play the forums more then the game. Guess you need to work on that left mouse skill friend, it actually does matter

My advice is to do some research. There are 5-6 mmos that tried your advice. Lets take Skyforge for example, an MMO with some of the metrics of your post:

Skyforge mechanics: Credits, skill points, resources all have a weekly cap geared around the casual player playing 2-3 hours a day. From the start of the game, everyone leveled up within close proximity to each other, and for several weeks this worked. Casuals/hardcores were close in levels. However, this is the end result of that system:

1) Wednesday(reset day) and Thursday the game is active (and Saturday), this is where the hardcore players CAPPED for the week was Thursday. Its a ghost town other days. If you dont get in a instance group for a weekly by Thursday, forget about it for the week. Maybe Saturday youll get one. Monday, Tuesday, Friday good luck, no ones online, theres no point to login if your capped. I personally capped every Thursday, so I played skyforge 2 days before logging in was near pointless.

2) Most hardcore gamers arent going to play a game for 3 days, and have the game decide they cant play anymore. If it was non-consensual pvp, we'd go gank lowbies like you repeatedly for 20 levels until our exp debuff dropped lol. Which then you'd need to propose a PvP system to protect you there too! lol. Also,who is going to EXP at a -50% rate, when its not efficient to do so, so most will cap for the week and go play another game. In a MMO, you really dont want your population playing multiple MMOs, b/c when they do, your losing players. And its not the loss of subs im talking about, a loss of population at key times like the weekend when a crowded world means more players available for PvP, group content, etc. It snowballs fast. I mean if the PvP population has dropped by 50% because of some stupid pve mechanic, kittens cry. YOU DONT WANT KITTENS TO CRY RIGHT? MMOs that are not designed to keep people in game and happy suffer large losses of players, and become empty.

3) There is no way to "catch up" to friends. Weekly cap is weekly cap. Your 1 level short of grouping up for a dungeon with your friends on Thursday but your capped, forget it, you cant even go though even though your character is capable. Maybe the systems changed by now, but back at release, once your behind your freinds, G A M E O V E R. You cannot group with them until endgame really.

----- end skyforge issues

Any artificial boost to make bad players "better", whether its as simple as efficient PvE grinding, its plain wrong. ALL skill should be rewarded, as should time played. Its what I loved about Dark Age of Camelot your TIME spent in both pve and pvp mattered, at least in the first couple years of the game. Rewarding time played keeps the world populated.

I cannot even imagine how you would have felt playing something like Lineage 2, eve online, or other Asian games. If they actually go through with dropping the 4x exp, then maybe I could see you falling behind people when you play less then them. I could then understand your point of view. Right now, your falling behind is your own doing I think. I mean, I joined THIS month and hit 56 last week like 12/23, it looks like youve been playing a long time and said your barely 40? that makes no sense to me. You should know how to level inside and out by now and run rings around noobs like me.

 

First off, there's a large part of your post that is actually really interesting. You're talking about the OP, which is rare in this thread, and you're arguing against it with some experience from other games. Well done.

I'll just reply with a number of counter arguments in no particular order.

1. I've been playing this game since Release 1. I know how to play it. The reason I don't level very high is that it's not fun. I didn't see where you said leveling was fun, was it fun? Because I've been through every wipe and it's never been fun. Not even a little. It's boring, and it's pointless. So congrats on getting to level 56 in two weeks. That doesn't help me because it's not making the game any more fun.

2. You can't pvp anyone at level 56. Not if you want to win. Go ahead and try, go find someone that is flagged for pvp and see how well you do on average. In fact, just flag yourself for pvp and let me know all the fun stories you have.

3. This is a roleplaying game. It's not a leveling game. At least, that's what the game was billed as in the Kickstarter. That's what was supposed to make this game "different". It LITERALLY says all this in the first few lines of the Kickstarter. So whatever games you're used to playing shouldn't really apply here. This isn't WOW it's not EQ. This is supposed to be a game that BY DESIGN is not focused on leveling.

4. I don't really care about the "hardcore" MMO players, I care about people that want to roleplay. That's what people are supposed to be doing when they're not grinding. PVP is another example of a healthy activity that was also stated in the Kickstarter would be "meaningful" and not just a pointless exercise in killing players. This is what a lot of people seem to struggle with, roleplaying games are not supposed to be about leveling for the sake of leveling. That's not what "the game" is supposed to be about.

If we make this game and people can't stop leveling long enough to RP or PVP, then we flat out haven't made the game that we set out to during the Kickstarter. Which is a really big deal since that's largely why many people probably put money into this game. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn't put money into this game so I could spend all my time leveling.

5. Skill is an overused word that you seem convinced means "time played". It doesn't. Skill is when you outsmart or out play your opponent. Skill is not leveling or playing the game a lot. Unfortunately the game is not designed in a way that allows players to be skillful, and that's kind of a major point of emphasis that I have talked about for a long time.

6. I disagree with your assessment of MMO's. You seem to think that leveling keeps people happy. Why wouldn't those people be happy in the 100's of other games that allow them to level then? Seems like a complete failure of logic to me.

 

I didnt say leveling makes people happy. I said capping it makes people unhappy. At the end of the day,

A) As a longtime player, you should outlevel most of us on knowledge alone. Your claiming a big issue with you is falling behind when the game releases. I said, Ive played for 2 weeks and im 56 without even knowing where to go or focusing on leveling. Which means you should have no problem at release outleveling people or at least keeping even.

B) Skill im talking about is PvE skill. The ability to level extremely fast when you want b/c you know what metrics to use to determine the best ways to level.

Example: We both login and play say 20 hours the first week of launch. By the 18th hour, your level 5 because you've decided to roleplay. You go out to get level 6, and kill a mob for 100exp. Im level 28 because Im focusing on leveling and figured out the exact path to level. However, I kill mobs for -50%exp? Your saying thats fair? You and I played for the EXACT amount of time, but because im more efficient at PvE and leveling you want me to have a exp debuff?

Im at a serious loss...

 

PVE success should not equate to PVP success. They're two very different things.

I'm saying in the OP, that the point of the game isn't to go out and be the highest level and endlessly grind. If you want to do that, you're welcome to it. But there should be a speed bump that slows you down the higher you get and the more you get away from the rest of the pack. Why? Because we're already seeing what happens when that doesn't occur, we have almost NO BODY pvping, we have low populations, and we have people that would love to PVP but can't because of the horrible grind requirements.

You have to understand that not every person that plays this game is interested in ACHIEVING the highest level. There are people that like to explore, socialize, and kill. Right now this game pretty much only caters to achievers.

 

This game is in alpha... No one is really pvping because.... we are testing. You know... release 25 only really had a 1 pvp change, the guild pvp system which players voiced their opinion on already. If your playing to PvP or roleplay today... Your doing it wrong. The game is in development, we are here to test and luckly for us we have input into the game which is great.

One of the downsides of including a community in a pre-alpha, some people actually play it like its a game and forget its not a "game". We are here to test. Everything you see in game today, including how many are PvPing means nothing. Some of us love PvP, but we also know if we dont help the devs test and fix bugs in pve land, the game wont attract enough victims to PvP. Alpha's can flip outside down, entire mechanics can change. Im sure when theres a BIG PVP patch, hopefully testers show up in force to test the imbalances.

Anyway, what im saying about level 56 is if a complete noob to the game can get 56 in 2 weeks without even trying, with 4x removed it means 2 months maybe to cap level. And the only thing I would agree with you on is 2-3 months just to PvP is a bit long. Honestly, I think they will end up leaving the 4x exp in, b/c its true no one whats to grind pve for 2 months just to pvp. But your OP is still flawed, its not the way b/c your still penalizing some of the population, and thats not fair.

 

It doesn't sound fair to me. To me it just sounds like the people who invested their time to obtain a high level would be penalized for it.

 

what is this? a salute to mediocrity? what is all this striving for equality crap? i dont get this at all. first of all, anyone who thinks that grinding 100 hours of XP will give you a competitive edge in PVP has clearly not participated in PVP in this game. saying this is just silly.

if i run 6 miles a day to train for the standing long jump, im likely to find myself on the losing end if i compete against someone who spent their time training to...*drum roll* JUMP!
and i do not understand why people should be penalized for having more free time than someone else.

if you go to work, then head to the gym, then go out for drinks with friends, then go out on a date, get home around 11pm and play till 1am...rinse and repeat daily..
and i go to work, come home, and play the game till 2am...rinse and repeat daily...

I SHOULD and damn well BETTER be more powerful than you stat-wise. your choices were different. your priority was not the game. as it probably should not be...but if I DID make the game a priority i should be able to reap the fruits of my labor. not be throttled so that you can easily catch up. if i pull away, i DESERVE to pull away.

apply that logic to real life. if i work 65 hours a week to get ahead in life and you only work 30 because you enjoy that extra sleep and social time, after i hit 40 hours should my pay be reduced to keep me from out earning you too much and building up a bigger and fatter savings account that you cant seem to match...while you start earning MORE money per hour to help you catch up? if that happens, you will find more and more people working 30 hours a week and less and less working 65.

this is the same mentality of those folks flippin burgers and slinging fries believing they should earn as much income as someone who fixes computers.

sorry folks. thats not the way the world works. minimum effort EQUALS minimum reward.



furthermore, leveling in this game is EASY. level 50 can be achieved in a matter of 3 or 4 days if you know where to go and when to go there. Level 60 can be achieved in a week of serious grinding. then 70 in 2 weeks. the leveling doesnt even get to be time consuming until after that point.

 

so go fight a troll. they can be killed relatively easily and at low levels. you do not have to be level 70 to go fight the troll in the obsidian ruins. a level 10-15 can do it if they are skilled. otherwise, plan on doing it around 25-30. trolls are super easy to kill.

 

To sum up some of the recent replies...

Leveling is easy, it only takes 35 seconds to become level 2185.
Go kill a troll, I kill 6 trolls just by logging into the game.
Sorry you're so bad at the game, obviously you are just doomed to fail in life.


Thanks for your feedback.

 

The grind is the repetitive nature of killing the same creatures in a pointless way - yes. It's standing around killing things over and over again just to gain experience. If you're a person that wants to pvp, you have to gain more experience than whoever you plan to fight against.

That's what I'm talking about. A treadmill. A meaningless treadmill. The opposite of what this game was supposed to be about.

I'm not against character progression. I'm not against getting experience for killing some monsters. I'm against doing this for the rest of my SOTA life in an effort to remain PVP competitive.

 

who cares if it is easy or hard. fast or slow. people who work harder for it should not be punished for their hard work while people who work casually at it are rewarded.

Well, you have to do a bit more than log in. but if you cant kill a troll by level 30, you are probably using fail mechanics. and if you cant kill one by 56, you should seek advice from someone who can teach how to fight one. they are seriously easy kills.

Correct me if i am wrong, IF the dev's were to agree, and IF the devs were to seek to build a game that discourages grinding, wouldnt the answer be for the devs to design a game that rewards the behavior they desire?

For example:
I am in Deep Ravenswood grinding wolves for XP...no quest. Just grinding. roughly 1.2k XP per kill. I occasionally kill the spiders near by for about 1.5k xp each. and i harvest any resource nodes i see for 200xp each. no gold or mentioned loot in this scenario.

You go to Owl's Head, and speak with a merchant. That merchant asks you to retrieve 15 Spider Sacs so that he can create an anti venom to cure a caravan of traders who were attacked on the road...on your way out of town, you run into a one handed huntsman who just lost his hand to a wolf, in ravenswood and he would pay dearly to have the ring he was wearing back. lastly, you meant a young mother who does not have the money to properly clothe her children, but if some brave man would be kind enough to donate some cotton to her, she would give all that she has.

And now you join me in Deep Ravenswood. First you start hunting the wolves. There are a lot of wolves in Deep Ravenswood, so this will likely take many kills to hunt down the correct wolf. Each wolf kill grants you 1.2k XP as well, however, you also recieve 1.2k QUEST bonus XP as well. You see some cotton over yonder and, and recall you needed some for that woman. So you harvest it. You also get 200xp. however, you also get 200 QUEST bonus XP on top of that. And finally, before you decide to head back to town you seek out some spiders to collect the spider sacs needed to cure the caravan who was ambushed. each kill nets you 1.5xp AND an additional 1.5k QUEST bonus xp. Now you return to Owl's Head to turn in. The one handed man grants you an additional amount of XP for the completion, along with Fame and Karma, and maybe the Axe of the Huntsman or some gold. The merchant grants you a pool of xp for completion, fame and karma, and some gold...maybe even a buff that gives you a discount at his store for a few hours or something "merchantly", and finally you swing by the woman and drop off the cotton she needs. she rewards you with XP, fame, and karma, but alas, has nothing of value to give.

In the above example, the devs are not PENALIZING "undesired" play styles. They are simply rewarding "wanted" behavior. And tho i had twice as much as time to sit there and grind my XP, u earned twice as much XP for the time u spent. But this is ok. because maybe i dont like all the running and reading and just prefer to sit back and relax, watch a bit of TV and grind these monsters will chatting on teamspeak with my guild. you however, got to enjoy a rich and rewarding RP system because that is what you enjoy.