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Already Frustrated w/ CONVO!

Discussion in 'Release 4 Feedback' started by Hempy Do`Herben, Dec 13, 2013.

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  1. Miganarchine

    Miganarchine Avatar

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    I think the system idea is a good one and reminds me of Zork but at the moment the problem is what to say to NPC's in the game because most of the time there are no leads as to what to say, If they are a quest giver then their seems to be no way of knowing this, I know it's what RG hates about current mmo but most people who play will need some sort of stimulus to chat with them no matter how vague that reference is, But some of my encounters have been surprising and fun to find out stuff where I previously was not looking for any story. This chat system will either define this game or break it, And I am hoping for the first.
     
  2. Drocis the Devious

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    In regards to point and click chat. I want a way to PING someone. I want to be able to just say "HEY YOU!" as they're running by me at light speed. That way they know to stop and like pay attention. Can we get that?

    This is mostly for other players, but for NPC's it would be nice too.
     
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  3. Nemo Herringwary

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    The problem with simple word chains is that you can accidentally break them by saying a word naturally that triggers a response meant for later, but not understand why this has happened, nor easily be able to get back to earlier conversation path; this is exaggerated further the more "natural" you try and make an NPC, as a word is more likely to be repeatedly used in different contexts as the conversation progresses...

    The earlier Ultima's used to have a system where by certain responses were locked off until you'd performed a certain action, so even if you said the right word, the NPC wouldn't recognise it until the game knew you were aware of the meaning of that term. Something similar should be considered here, because with the much greater power of modern machines, people expect a much higher (even if unrealistic) standard of response, and are much more likely to experiment.

    Likewise, for something like "Red Sash" as a response for example, it should be flagged both for how many times it's been said, and associated terms; so "Red Sash +1" triggers the first part of the mayors speech, but "Red Sash +2" triggers a second...but only if they've also asked about the Cave, say. And "Red Sash +3" if the player is now carrying a Sash. But there should also be a tag on every NPC that when the player says "I Don't Understand" or similar, the last triggered response goes back one, so "Red Sash -1", to give the player the chance to work the conversation backwards and pick up threads again. They may have a sash for instance, and have been in the cave, but not have spoken to the NPC until this point... and are wondering now why he thinks you know what you're doing with them.

    But as you mentioned, it's impossible to pre-script an NPC of any kind with enough information to hold a realistic conversation; so focus more on how to make it feel right to the player, rather than truly sound right... a simple guide to keywords not yet explored might be enough; so if that conversation line hasn't been exhausted yet, the word "Red Sash" is in one hue, but the line which goes from Bandits to Cave has, that shows a light grey.
     
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  4. Phredicon

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    I think this is a good point, there will hopefully be some sort of an 'introduction' upon our arrival in the world, similar to the very beginning of Ultima VII.
     
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  5. Floors

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    I played a lot of the original Ultima games so asking questions and typing keyword and word chains doesn't bother me, it feels natural.

    That said - the current system is horribly broken and has been since it came in R2 or R3. Why can you hear and have conversations with people you can't see ?

    Why can't Thomas serve me a beer ? You know... It doesn't seem to be getting better. I'd like to see drastic improvement on this in R5.

    Forget the graphics whiners, let's get this fixed first
     
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  6. Arkhan

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    Agreed. The graphics aren't that bad outside of some weird clipping where your hair disappears while fighting/etc.

    Pretty graphics won't matter if you're talking to a bunch of braindamaged NPCs.
     
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  7. Caliya

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    When I first started games in the late 1980s, everything (just about) was text, and I had to type sentences that I discovered were key words and they could give a rip about my sentence. Personally, taking the time to type out various sentences is immersion-breaking. So is figuring out key words.

    There is a reason gaming evolved. Because people discovered typing text was cumbersome and immersion breaking.

    Sometimes old timers have to change with the times instead of trying to keep the old times alive. Not to be disrepectful, but decisions like this keep being made, to the chagrin of many old timers themselves (like me).

    Now, if it's a retro game you're after, you're doing a fine job. But this was supposed to be innovation. Change game plans if you like, but don't call it innovative.
     
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  8. ThePompousPeasant

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    100 % agree that the conversation system is absolutely horrendous. It's unfortunate because that's what I was looking the most forward to. I certainly will hang with SotA until launch and I wish you the best with fixing it. I'm not sure how to but will think on it.

    There are just so many bad things about it. NPC's say the same thing to questions, say random things, don't respond, say wrong things...I mean the list just goes on to oblivion.
     
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  9. Floors

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    Caliya, that's a fair point - but give me an example where there's something better in modern games ?

    What it got replaced with was pick one of 2 or 3 possible choices... I don't think that's any better...

    Graphics on modern games are much better. That's the one thing that's improved. But gameplay hasn't improved - I'm with Richard on this one - it's actually gotten worse.

    Games today are very trite. They use the same formulas over and over, don't break much new ground, and tend to be pretty repetitive.

    Monster Hunter, Dark / Drab / Black Souls 1 and 2..... these are the most celebrated games today.. they're not good games - not in the sense of making me feel wow this is real anyway. Good at taking up your time they are, I'll give that.

    Morrowind/Oblivion/Skryim were the closest games to the early Ultimas when we didn't know any better about graphics to giving that "immersion"... and even they fall short !

    In fact they got quite a bit worse in some ways as they went forward - only the graphics and some of the systems improved.

    Really, what's the best game you played that had the least "immersion breaking" convo system that still made you feel like you were talking to real people ? Don't say Skyrim.
     
  10. Miganarchine

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    For me that would have to be Fallout New Vegas.
     
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  11. Miganarchine

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    I mean if they could link this typing thing up to a speech recognition so we could actually talk as it types that would be more innovative!
     
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  12. Lord Andernut

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    I would rather "initiate" conversation by using a keyboard button than a mouseclick. I personally find it aggravating that people I'm talking to that are walking around will walk away from me as I'm talking (I'd like to end with "bye")

    My biggest gripe with the conversation system is I'm switching from mouse+keyboard to keyboard only to mouse+keyboard to change view or move somewhere to keyboard only to talking..

    Since the keywords are already highlighted for us, an option to click on them instead of typing them would be nice.

    I'm pleased to see that Name! Job! Bye! is working, it brings me back :p
     
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  13. Floors

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    Seconded on the mouse click.

    Don't forget "health"... or "heal" was all you had to spell in the old days.

    Unfortunately "mantra" and "stone" don't seem to work... :)
     
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  14. Caliya

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    I invested in this game. I was hoping for more than this.

    And yes, those games are screaming my name. And I will play them and not invest more money in this one at the current design goals.

    It is creating a niche market, which is fine, if that's what they're after.
     
  15. Arkhan

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    It shouldn't be creating a market at all. I thought it was creating a game.
     
  16. Caliya

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    To be honest, there is no innovation in the gaming world, only different stories and better graphics. And better music. The music in SotA is almost identical to Ultima IX! If you want retro, fine! Just don't expect me to be impressed.

    The most immersive game I experienced with a clickable conversation was Dragon Age: Origins. It really felt like the NPC cared. Sure there were things I would've liked to have said instead of the choices given. But it always has to come down to either key words or clicking on choices. In actuality, NONE of it is choice. It's all pre-programmed. Even if there are consequences to actions, even that is pre-programmed. There is no other way around that.

    Now, do I want to waste my time typing or click on possible choices? I want to play the game, not stand around and gab with an NPC with extremely limited options. That does not feel immersive to guess and type.

    What is immersive is being able to play the game, not TYPE a sentence. I mean, if you were really interacting with a real human, would you stand in front of them and type? Well in today's cell phone texting world, PROBABLY. But why make it painful? I'd rather click.

    I also really resent the implication that people who don't want to type don't want to "think" or are "lazy." I mean, my husband has a PhD in physics, and I'm highly educated. It's not a matter of not wanting to think and being lazy. It doesn't take typing and thinking skill to figure out a quest. To treat people like they're stupid, as if typing is going to force people to think, is really not productive.
     
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  17. Arkhan

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    Given what I've seen people typing to the NPCs, I don't think wanting to type necessarily makes you intelligent either.

    R4 looked like an AOL chat at times.

    Even worse when you're seeing someone talk to an NPC while you're nowhere near anyone.
     
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  18. Floors

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    Hmm.. well you're right about it being pre-programmed no matter what

    Typing is not much more *work* than games make you do anyway, like endlessly running around maps to get somewhere or do something.

    The difference is really the below.....

    Landon: Have you heard about the resistance ?

    a.) I'd like to join the resistance
    b.) Die, Scum ! All resistance supporters will suffer my wrath!
    c.) Goodbye

    You: a.)

    Landon: What is the password ?

    a.) I don't know
    b.) Goodbye

    <****... this sucks I have to click on a.) >

    you get :

    Landon: Have you heard about the resistance ?
    You: resistance
    Landon: Would you like to join the resistance ?
    You: join
    Landon: What is the password
    You: <... **** !! I don't know > Frank ?
    Landon: I cannot help thee with that.
    You: Your Mother
    Landon: I cannot help thee with that.
    You: <god damn it... I'll have to find it>
     
  19. Arkhan

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    I will say, when you're constantly going from Mouse+Keyboard to just keyboard (for talking), it gets irritating.


    Games in the 80s that were typing heavy didn't have this problem, obviously.


    And games like Ultima VI, you could play almost entirely with the keyboard without issue.
     
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  20. docdoom77

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    I tend to agree with this, but there isn't really a way around it. Just something we'll have to get used to.

    The SoTA team is definitely not going to go with a non-typing chat system. It's key to RG's concept. I just hope, by pointing out it's flaws, that we can help the team improve the system.

    Also, a lot of what makes it frustrating right now is because of how incomplete it is. When the game is done and the chat system is polished, I think it will be less irritating.
     
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