Already Frustrated w/ CONVO!

I think people here understood that the first time you said it.
Is that all you can imagine?

 

Well, it seemed it wasn't very clear to at least a couple of you

No it is not all I can imagine, I'm just being clear on that is not a system I want. I wouldn't be against a hybrid system with buttons for common questions like job, buy, sell, bye etc...but I see the value in having a more freeform conversation system with the ability to ask other things not in a predetermined list.

 

Um, the list is predetermined. It's only hidden to you. All it takes is one key word. That key word is not known to you, you have to figure it out.

Maybe you like to use your time in this way.

I don't.

I should add, all it will take is for people to post all the key words on a wiki. Then you won't even have to guess.

 

And after a couple of days 90% of the players won't try to figure out crafting recipes either anymore. They will be on the same wikis.
Times have changed.

 

Sigh, I know it is predetermined but it is not glaringly obvious of what choice to make by the player because it isn't sitting in front of their face waiting to be pressed as a selection.

Of course it will be available to on wikki everything will....but it leaves it up to the player to decide to use it or not, that doesn't make it the easiest choice for everyone. I mean that is like saying why have a surprise if it can possibly end up on a wiki.

To me having text being able to be entered allows some items for when I play through the game a bit more challenging. Such as, a secret word I learned from some theif in the city that allows me access to some specail items at a store. I say the word to the vendor and I get access...it could be handeled via a flag on my character, but I find having me have to think it through adds to my game. Not to mention the number of flags involved for so many different scenerios that this cvould apply to could be problematic.

I'm thinking I'm really typing all this for no reason in this case though.

 

Easily done by irreversible consequences to the choices clicked and by popups for certain things.
As an example, if someone does not read and therefore answers something that makes the NPC suspicious, let them act suspicious from that time on. I have seen this in many good RPGs over the years including one where pickpocketing in a tavern made you be banned from it permanently not allowing you to take certain quests 100 hours of game play later . I have also played games that allowed for mixed systems where you could obtain certain information and then initiate a dialogue by doing the right thing at the right place, while regular dialogue was clickable.

You are mixing visible choices with dumbed down content.

 

That is all done by flags, like I said it could be. However, using flags is limited in the fact that everything has to be flagged like that which is fine for a awhile but can stack up on your character file over time, which really can get unweildy over a long peroid depending on how many choices you have to make flagged.

 

Granted it would be the same in text system if they want you to only see that conversation once.

 

Sorry but do you really believe that this is even remotely enough data to cause trouble?
We live in a day and age where companies talk about streaming game content out of the cloud instead of processing graphics locally, and you tell me a few bits of flags per character per NPC, stored somewhere in a database are an issue?

 

What I don't understand is the apparent aversion for even an *optional* click-able keyword list. Leave the full text entry UI in for those who can endure it. Provide the rest of us with a more modern “lazy” UI. (Behind the scenes it's all keyword-based anyway). It may not be ideal but at least I could experience the supposed “epic” story - that won't happen if I'm forced to type my interactions with NPCs. And I won't be the only one...
_

 

no not really, it's not the flags themselves. I think in ways it allows them not to have to worry about the flagging at all for some things. I never thought it was the size of the file be transmitted just the amount of things to be kept track of for a relatively simple thing.

Regardless, there is some merit to not walking up to an npc without 3 automatic choices of dialogue that you click on then move on. I mean if you are looking for simple vendor bots as in the simplistic UO design that's fine, and even an upgrade from how you had to communicate with them.

Don't get me wrong i don't think it is perfect as is, but I don't want just a menu system of choose selection a b or c. Also, I'm hoping they flesh out each of the NPC's enough so they don't feel shallow.

 

That makes no sense. If you do not fag with the current system NPCs will senselessly repeat stuff completely breaking any sort of immersion.
I really see no difference at all between clickable choices and hidden keywords other than one being tedious.

 

I wasn't able to speak to even one NPC... they do speak to me sometimes when I run into them, but thats all I been able to get from them, tried many of the keywords used here too...

and yes the NPC talk button was activated... :/

 

Just want to point out to the person(s) that said they didn't want a speed-clicking through conversation game and to go find a different game... I don't equate typing with Ultima. For some people they will feel more immersion while typing, for some they will feel less.

But by all means, use complete sentences.

There will be people who will enjoy this game more by typing thus:

"name"
"job"
"trouble"
"guards"
"bandits"
"cave"
"bye"

There would be people others who prefer to click bye than type bye. English not your first language? Tend to be dyslexic? Frequently make mistakes while typing? Let the poor people click.

Sometimes I'll want to type sentences, sometimes I'll want to type keywords. Sometimes I'd rather just click if I don't feel like letting go of the mouse. Most of the Ultima Games were clicking and I was quite immersed in those. Immersion for me is not typing, but the thoughtfulness behind dialogue and quests and combat and a bevy of other things. I like flexibility in the system.

Sometimes ease of use IS the best form of immersion. And if clicking on the keyword instead of typing it bothers you... don't click?

 

I kinda agree with LB on this--there is something really, really nice and essential feeling about trying to have natural language discussions with NPCs. And I don't think it takes that long to get used to having NPC conversations? And I enjoyed talking with NPCs A LOT in releases 1-3, probably to an unhealthy degree.

But R4 did something to the conversations that makes them seem not that fun anymore? I think it's an "uncanny valley" kind of situation, where conversation has become smart enough to be frustrating but not quite smart enough to feel workable. It's like the sociopathy dial has been dialed up to 11 on every NPC. Example (this isn't literal game text, just an account of the past hour I spent trying to find Morton's house in Kingsport):

Me: I'm looking for Morton.
NPC: Aye, Morton! A good man he was and true. Loved his ale perhaps a bit much. I wonder what became of him? Tis a true shame about his wife, Alicia.
Me: His wife?
NPC: I don't understand you.
Me: Alicia?
NPC: Could you repeat what you just said?
Me: Morton's wife, Alicia? What do you know about her?
NPC: I've already told you all I know about Morton. Are ye asking me a question?
Me: Yes
NPC: You're a positive sort, aren't you?
Me: Alicia
NPC: Keep on repeating everything!

Or trying to give red sashes that I bought from the bandit shopkeeper guy to sell to Enmar (basically an infinite source of gold, as long as you stay on the bandits' good side!):

Enmar: Just mention to me if you have red sashes you want to sell, and I'll take care of it.
Me: I have red sashes to sell.
Enmar: Something red? What is it?
Me: Red sashes to sell.
Enmar: Just mention to me if you have red sashes you want to sell, and I'll take care of it.
Me: SELL RED SASHES
Enmar: Something red?
Me: SASHES
Enmar: I don't understand you.
Me: I WANT TO SELL YOU RED SASHES
Enmar: I hope you get what you want. Just mention to me if you have red sashes you want to sell, and I'll take care of it.
Me: I DO
Enmar: Do not!

It's just like--there are a lot of tricky and fun things they say (my favorite is the Mayor in Kingsport, who tells you that he knows a thing if it is true, distinct, and coherent, or something that's the philosophical definition of knowledge according to some x philosopher--that was actually pretty hilarious), but all of those, in this release, get in the way of the kind of stupid-but-good-natured AI before, where if you start screaming to Enmar about RED SASHES he'll probably blunder into understanding your meaning.

I do not envy the task of trying to create a satisfying AI, and I seriously understand that it's probably not going to ultimately happen in a Turing-capable way. (And keyword highlighting I think works pretty well.) It's just like--with this release, saying that you *want* anything will provoke a snarky reply. Thomas sent me to Kingsport to ask about mead shipments, and questions like "Who knows about mead shipments" or "shipments" or "mead" or "alcohol" don't get expected results.

I feel like the solution may not be like RIPPING OUT THE WONDERFUL CONVERSATION ENGINE (I do love it for all its hateful faults, even if I'm like THE ONLY ONE WHO DOES), but maybe just being really, really clear when receiving a quest about what the player should ask the next NPC in the chain for? Having Thomas send you to Kingsport to figure out what's happened to his mead trade and then having nobody in Kingsport have the faintest idea about that trade--or having people mention Morton's wife to you and then forget her existence entirely--is what's immersion breaking, not just the act of talking to an NPC. I feel like there's a way to do it in a wink-wink natural way--like Thomas says "You might try asking Innkeeper Abbot about the mead trade--just mention [Thomas's shipments] to him, and he'll know what to do." I seriously wouldn't mind that--it's even fun to try to find a natural language way to say that. And then people who just want to blitz through the whole talking-to-a-computer part of the game can just be all THOMAS SHIPMENTS VENDOR GUARDS BUY THE BANK and be on their way back to the killing fields.

Is this like totally unreasonable?

 

This is something that EverQuest just learned recently. For a decade, everything had to be typed, but there were a lot of complaints from those for whom this was not easy. A friend of mine only has one hand, so typing is a chore for him, but he does enjoy gaming. He is very happy that EQ now allows him to click on keyword.

I think that typing is the most satisfying exchange, because I can say what I want, not what the script tells me to. But there are lots of reasons for clickable keywords: dyslexia, language, disability, etc. I would rather support those and have a larger audience, even tho I feel it "dumbs down" the conversation system.

 

I disagree, just because language really is not reducible to an a/b/c list of choices. What you can actually DO is maybe limited to those choices, but how you express them is important.

I'm maybe biased because I'm a writer and this is like catnip to me, but I really enjoy being able to *play a character* in a role-playing game, to find a way to say whatever thing will advance the plot while still expressing some kind of character. It's fun. For those for whom it isn't fun, the keywords are highlighted anyway, all the classic Ultima starting points (name/job/health) are there for pretty much every NPC, and it's probably possible to blitz through conversation without really getting into the fussier stuff. I think it's a totally elegant opt-in system, and I really kind of rankle at the notion that for efficiency's sake it'd be better just to have a boring list of choices.

Games like Planescape Torment or Fallout just really, really turn me off because I'm maybe making the same fundamental choices, but the game is putting words in my mouth. Even if it's all a bunch of illusions or let's pretends or whatever to think that the way in which something is said can be as enjoyable as like--the brutal boolean logic of a computer NPC, I don't think it's fair to ditch the complexity that some of us get off on just so that NPC interaction can be more forgettable and efficient. (Especially if like--the guy with his name above the game title agrees with me )

 

I definitely agree with this (and with another accessibility concern someone had in another thread about the difficulty of reading the damage meters if you're colorblind). One thing I've really liked with all 4 releases thus far is that every release introduces some kind of new redundancy or option. Those crazy people like me who prefer bag inventories get to keep them, those who prefer hateful spreadsheets get to keep those. I don't feel like anyone loses out if clickable keywords are an OPTION for those who'd find it fairly hard to play without them--but an option that you can turn off if you really just do enjoy gabbing with fake people in a fake world (which I do and which is one of the major reasons I like this game.)

 

You example is great in the sense that this sort of conversation makes me not want to use the system at all.
To me it is a big immersion breaker.

 

But NPC speech has been reduced to exactly that by a simple keyword system. Whatever else goes on is purely in peoples heads.
And the only thing that is triggered in mine is a strong desire to ridicule the NPC that are unable to do what the system aims at in a very old fashioned and technologically outdated way.