Am I the only one who doesn't want to play card game combat??

My take on the 'cards' approach to combat skills is 'wait and see'....

Injecting a little randomness into MMO style combat could be a very good thing

As is, combat in MMOs and RPGs tends to not be random or opportunistic. They are 'play the skill that you want to when you want to play it' games. Or...'mash the buttons in the specified rotation' games.

In life, you can imagine that combat is much more alive and fluid. You thrust and counter thrusts, dodge or block, not when you want to....but based on the last move of your opponent, your positioning at the time, some skill but also a little luck, etc. etc.

What if an RPG or MMO could be programmed to offer a little more of that? If that a bad thing? Or is that a potentially major advancement in how we play these games?

 

In life, you wouldn't live long enough to test that theory.

 

I have noted, with growing disdain, how one of the most common fallback responses to someone discussing combat, especially lethal combat, is to retort "you shouldn't talk, you'd get whupped."

I have NO EARTHLY IDEA how well @Beaumaris would do in a real swordfight, and neither do you. In any competition, there is typically a loser AND a winner, and who's to say that he wouldn't be the winner? There are still alive today Florentine fencing masters who have fought multiple actual duels to the death, they seem to have managed to win repeatedly. So apparently not everyone who has something to say about combat would end up dead. Maybe there's some wisdom in him saying that we should give the system a try.

I'm not sure how I feel about the system, even in it's current discussion I don't know, I won't KNOW till I've leveled to max, locked my primary moves, worked out my ability decks, cleaned up my ability spec, and more or less mastered the system. I think it is shortsighted and unworthy of this forum, however, to belittle someone simply for expressing the opinion that it MIGHT work.

 

Alright, mate. Look again. Nowhere in that handful of words did I imply that Beaumaris's skill with a sword is inferior to mine, not did I imply that the topic shouldn't be discussed. Rather, what I wrote was rather easily possessed of irony. In real life, combat is not fun. It is chaotic, painful, and mortal. I don't imagine anyone would want to play a game where the player's character loses effectiveness with each successive fight unless a day's rest is taken between, just as I doubt anyone would appreciate the degree of chaos that is inherent to martial combat in life. The point of this all, in case you don't see it, is to contend that the argument that a particular way of doing things is better because it is more realistic is not an astonishingly good one. The main reason combat feels more alive is because in life, combat puts you face to face with death. Fortunately, it's not possible to emulate that with an RPG.

As for the idea that randomness parallels the chaos of real combat, that's just silly. What you can or can't do in a real fight is only limited by your own abilities and the environment.

None of this is meant to suggest that card based combat is a bad idea. It might be fun. But it's a game. None of this has any bearing on anything real. At all.

 

And yet, what you SAID to him was:

I stand by my comment. That was a low blow, and unworthy of this forum.

 

My reading skills fail to pick up any of the following words in that sentence:

Lord Trenyc
Trenyc
I
me
versus
against
fight
duel
else

But hey, what more is there to say besides what's plainly there for anyone else to read? Buen suelo, mon ami. I'm done here.

 

Imagine you are in a fight. You make a split second decision to make one move, but could have made three others. Your opponent responded to that, leading him somewhat down a path that perhaps limits his response, but he still has choices. He makes a choice and you respond. Your response is not just based on your desire to attack, but also your need to defend. Again, responses are dictated by situation in the moment to some degree, yet there are choices.

Traditional MMOs are mostly about attack. You choose the attack you want more or less. Some MMOs offer blocking too. But no MMOs that I am aware of give you a choice of attacks and defenses based on the position your are in at the moment, which can change blow to blow. I think the cards approach is about modeling something like that. Not just randomly throwing choices at you. There is a difference between 'stupid random', and 'limited choices give situation'.

My post was aimed at hoping to see if someone wanted to have a meaningful dialog about what that could look like if the dev team got it right. Not to further debate the extreme views of it is possible or it is not. Instead, what if it is possible, what would it look like. And how could that change gaming?

 

The combat system is not going in the direction that interests me at all. I want something that feels interactive like Dark Souls 2 level or more. I want something like THAT, not auto attacks and combat bars. I wanna feel like there are collisions going on, like my freaking actions have substance.

 

I have played a game where combat and hunting wears you down and requires you rest, and its fun. The key is the game doesn't expect you to grind and go from one fight to another, to another, to another. When you face combat, its a big event. When you take your loot, tend your wounds, and go somewhere to rest, you feel like you're enjoying the aftermath of a winning fight.

Can't emulate the degree of danger that's in life, but its possible to make death have a heavy penalty that you want to avoid, which queues your adrenaline. Many UO players will testify to the rush they feel when facing a combatant in the wilderness and deciding whether to run or to fight. In that case the player doesn't want to lose his gear. Even in U8, there was a bit of a rush when the ground started shaking and you had to get out of the way, because death was permanent. And in the game I mentioned, there's also perma-death and you can be killed by a single blow from a bear. So combat situations can get tense.

Not saying any of this is how SotA should work, but I'd still say I don't agree with you on what is possible or impossible in games.

 

It's easy for people to speak negatively regarding the card based combat system when they haven't even tried it. It's all speculation. Personally, I am willing to give it a chance and then comment on it, rather than write it off completely when I have no idea what I am talking about!

Sounds like Deal-A-Meal. Is Richard Simmons an NPC in this game? lol

 

No you're not alone. They seem to think that we'll come arround when they show it. Unlikely.

 

I for one cannot wait for this deck combat. Just imagine how cool it will be to share secrets of deck building, and micromanaging our skills. I'm sure there will be some sort of science to it. I'm ALL FOR SCIENCE!

Just imagine how fun it will be wondering if we will get lucky enough to have our fireball spell pop up right when we need it to.

OH AND THE COMBOS!!! (clicking multiple cards to use at one time -- according to how they present the system) These will be the most devastating moves in the game, that will very likely make the most difference between winning and losing in PvP as well. These will all depend on massive LUCK!!! It is impossible to make every combo you know come up when you need it, even with the best deck optimization. So you could make the perfect deck, and have play all your cards right, and still lose the fight because of luck. FREQUENTLY. That means more times than not you don't have the right combo.


This sounds like the type of games I would love to share with my enemies. Tell them how good it is but not mention how bad the combat system is until after they give their money away. hahahahaha


Count me as one who votes against this system, but I choose not to lose my sense of humor when people don't agree with me.

 

So far the thing about the card system that I have most enjoyed hearing was the ability to opt out. Somehow we can gain "noble" slots, of which we may get three, maybe even four, which we can assign to vital skills we don't want to lose. Then the REST of our deck will be cards that we have to pick from at random, and hey, if I can ignore a bad deal and keep plugging away with my core abilities, guaranteeing that I'll always have something basic and useful on the action bar, I can tolerate it. If it turns out to be done really really well, then I imagine most people, myself included, will enjoy it.

And, if it turns out to be a complete crock, Portalarium said it could be discarded.

 

I'm not a fan of the proposed system.

This is just a rehash of the standard MMO fare with a small twist. I would only be interested in something more innovative.

Possibly something like a high-fidelity version of Mount & Blade or Chivalry for melee & ranged combat.

Here's a couple more upcoming games Shroud of the Avatar should take a page from:

• Kingdom Come: Deliverance - "A revolutionary combat system based on inverse kinematics, the only one of its kind to offer a rich, authentic yet easy-to-control, first-person melee experience. Based on actual 15th century fighting techniques and designed in cooperation with medieval martial arts experts."
• Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord - The next version of the revolutionary medieval combat game.

For magic, I'd prefer something more interactive that makes you feel like you're doing something other than mashing buttons. I liked drawing gestures ala Arx Fatalis but would like to see something innovative and new as well.

Unfortunately, I think we're still gonna end up with a WoWesque system judging from where things are now.

 

What if the card deal were somehow influenced by movement? High ground, nearby cover, effective range, who's moving forward, who's moving backward, who's moving to one side or the other... so that our movement influences the availability of moves?

 

I thought the combat system was to be more alive and interactive? I was expecting something on the lines of what was done with The Elder Scrolls wherein you control your mechanics, blocking etc... and it's not randomized or whatever is discussed here with this card system?

 

First you may read the faq to learn abot the currently planned combat system: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=19#faq_120
Fall back if this will not work as intended or players do not like it is standard short cut bar system afaik.

 

Gotta love your solution,'Don't play the game' why should he have a opinion, as long as the devs want it that way.Then again no reason to ask the players what they like or don't, if its going to fall upon deaf ears.

Yes to early to say if its going to work,much like the Housing , Avatras, and NPCs, ect, its all a wait and see. To use the premise if you don't like what you have seen or read , don't play, then a great number of us should just give up and look else where.

 

This thread doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It is like Sam Adams announces a new citrus ale (not released yet), and people take to the streets... "We don't want citrus in our ale!!" or "This idea for a beer sucks, we don't like it"! But you haven't even tried the beer yet, as it hasn't been released. How about you taste the beer before saying its crappy beer?

With all do respect, some people here are talking out of their a$$ a bit, because no one has even tried this system yet. If you try it and then dislike it, THEN you have something to talk about. Take a sip of the beer first people

 

I've followed enough games in my time to know that what I said is good advice.

When a game is going in a certain direction, broadly speaking, if someone's not onboard with that, it's more likely than not they will still not be onboard, come game time.

Given how relatively close we are to this game launching, "what you see is what you get" (again, broadly speaking), so anyone with profound issues will likely stay that way.