PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

I've been the best at everything I've applied myself. I'm also good at math, but never applied myself to it.

 

I find that to be highly unlikely.

 

I've been quite blessed.

 

Isaiah said;

Perfect example of the personality difference between a PvPer and a PvEer. You say you are PvE only... I believe it, because PvP people are competitve types that are never satisfied with being second best. They refuse to believe they were beaten so they get better and go back for more.

I'm not saying PvP people are better people than PvE people, but they are more competitive. Is a competitive nature good or evil??? I don't know and don't care. We are who we are.
-------------------------------------------------------------
~TL~

I do not accept other flaws as stemming from any PvP difference of personality. Everyone has frustration when they fail. It's just a human fact and not any group's ownership of that emotion. Any person who believes what you are stating about emotional differences is truly blind or inexperienced in human phycology.
A baby will cry when it can't reach it's bottle and some grown ups can exhibit the same behavior, but to say that PvP has an exclusive club of people who owns more of the emotion of frustration, is just plain wrong.in it's reasoning because it flies in the face of a PvP by choice person's ability to handle the frustrations of PvP.
We can't accept in reason an ability to donk our posting players on the head and be right by might and that is the frustration I believe you are expressing within your reasoning, just as many PvE by choice people are expressing here as well.

The subject of the thread is dealing with the question, of whether there should be or not, any special consideration given the PvP contestant, differently than the death of a PvE player. I believe they should be the same in consequence and not have any specialty given. PK will only be able to kill another player that has made their choice to risk the encounter and therefore are not murders who need any penalty above any normal death. There is no differences between them, when choice and instancing are in effect.
~Time Lord~

 

Nice

 

Ok i was talking to you , and was pointing out this is a PVP thread You can comment all you want on the PVP thread, but fact is, it is a PVP thread and not everyone agrees with you on this case here in PVP, so like you i have a right to comment also even if it is your post. or thread. maybe i should go and try to change around PVE set up, even though i could care less about PVE and it wont really effect me (see that would be ignorant, since i dont care!)

 

So they say, i think on a couple occasions money was the factor, more money more money!

 

Hi all,

Jumping in a bit on this topic with a little constructive feedback & past experience.

First off i've played Lineage back in the day. It took forever to level my Prince to 50 (one of only 3 on the server at the time). While at first the death penalty is not too bad in the lower levels, in the upper levels it would be so painful to loose 8 hours of XP because of a game lag death or other glitch. You could lag die a few times in a row and even get down to the point where you might de-level. There just went 16-24 hours of game play in a few minutes. After a few too many lag deaths, plus game changes that made it into an absolute grind, that was it for me. Never again. I hope that harsh XP loss is not gonna happen at high levels. I just don't have the time to grind 40hrs a week & turn my fun pastime into a job.

Other games across the years: WOW > LOTRO > SWTOR > GW2 (our current main game & it takes out the tedium of the MMO space, such a well made game.)

What turned me off in those games and caused my team to move on (Learn from their mistakes!):
A) Lineage: (Number 1)
1) Death Loss of XP
2) Changing heal/potion speed
3) Lag Deaths = De-level
4) PK can gank you and take your gear.

B) WOW: World of Warcraft
1) Running 4-12 hour 20/40 people raids over & over and only a couple people getting drops.
2) Groups of high level Gankers killing low level players in starter zones. Great way to encourage them to quit game.
3) High level grind was (is) a job, not a game.

C) LOTRO: Lord of the Rings Online
1) ANNOYING cash shop, just couldn't stand it popping up every 2 seconds.
2) Game play was recycled and quests became ridiculous like run 10 steps over and get my stick and bring it back or run to other side of world, talk to NPC & come back.
3) No EPIC level battles you'd expect from LOTR.
4) Move to Solo Play where the team would group up to try new content, then on first quest have to break party over & over, because we had to solo parts of the story. Solo MMO, thats a new one.

D) SWTOR: Star Wars the Old Republic:
1) This was a sad loss, great game in many different ways, just some terrible decisions from EA & the management. Massive lost of trust between players & both companies caused massive exodus.
2) Players where kept mostly in the dark as to Bug Fixes, whats going on, whats coming next.
3) Game breaking bugs in big raids that ruined hours of progression. (aka paying to beta test the game as it was VERY unfinished & was missing tons of basic features. Ready check anyone? >Insert "Jump" Ready check here< )
4) It just came down to people lost trust in playing the game and the team moved on.

E) GW2: Guild Wars 2
1) While it doesn't have your typical "Gear Grind" Raids at the end game, I have nothing but praise for this game. It has now become my 2nd favorite game of all time out of hundreds of games i've played.
(Number 1 favorite, incase your wondering, Ultima IV. hehe)

That brings me to making a game into a job:
1) Loosing XP: Turns playing into a grind, most modern Games have abandoned this outdated game mechanic.
2) Fighting over resources: Ore nodes, Boss Camping/Standing in line for 8 hours, Events, Mob Tagging, etc... (Creates a grind that encourages grief play)
3) Gating Progression: in PVP zones or Raid level instances. Playing for 6 hours in a raid with 40 people and 2 people get a drop. You might run it 100 times and not get anything, just not fun. Add a way to earn it, LOTRO had great token system that you could "Earn" your way to gear. After so many runs you where able to trade in the tokens for gear.
4) Getting Ganked & loosing Gear: If you don't have a choice between PVP & just PVE it ruins the fun of the many, for the enjoyment of the few. I never want to PVP until I choose to, forcing people to PVP is outdated and discourages people from playing the game.

I think DarkStarr makes all the right points about gear as well, why would anyone wear their good gear if they are gonna have the chance of loosing it. I know I wouldn't.

A deal breaker for me would be Loosing XP (+massive amounts at high levels), The "Ghost" thing, which I despise, just let me be rez'd or spawn at nearest check/waypoint. Other wise i'd just stay in town, out of all possible PVP areas and just hang out with members. I enjoy PVP, but only when I choose it and not when its forced on me.

This is each persons adventure, let them choose how they want to play without ruining the gameplay of others.

A tough thing to balance, but I hope you will give the player a choice vs forcing them.

 

Kismet, that is the best post ever. I agree with all your opinions 100 percent.

 

Is there any source for usage numbers for those servers other than anecdotal?

 

Not if there is ever increasing repair costs. If you know that every time you repair your gear it is going to be more expensive to repair it, what is the likelihood that you would rather use second rate gear for most things, and use good gear sparingly?

I think the chances are going to be quite high that people will use secondrate gear for most things, since nobody wants to waste their special gear against trash mobs.

Forget using great gear in PvP because macers will totally reck your gear. This is like looting the gear if you think about it. The person goes home with wrecked gear after one PvP combat with a macer, otherwise there is no good reason to have a break armor/weapon skill if it takes ten encounters with a macer for it to work. The only reason a break item skill would be useful is if you can wear down a person's armor or weapon in the combat you are fighting with them. Now couple that with the ever increasing item repair cost. Using best gear in PvP? Nope. I hope this isn't another portalarium fee (repair items/reduce cost of repair for $10 in the addon store)

So they need to go with something like the reforging process in this thread in place of using ever increasing repair costs "increasing Item repair costs" if they want people to use their best tier of gear. Also go with a looting system that allows people to loot more gear if you wear weaker items.

 

Kismet you had me until the "fighting over resources and losing gear" part. To me your vision diminishes the value of resources and gear. In a competitive game part of winning is the denying the enemy resources and assets, not just keeps and control points. I still enjoyed you post!

 

I've been browsing the forums since just yesterday and it's so clear that the vast majority of future playerbase don't want to ask for a permission to kill someone. "Hello!, we're out in the middle of nowhere and there is nothing stopping me from killing you. Would you let me kill you, please?" (How stupid is that?)

I didn't put my money in this game, yet. And, I know there are thousands like me who didn't. Because, we fear the project will not be brave enough to do what others couldn't for the last 15 years. But, I will absolutely go all-in if I'm assured PVP will be forbidden "only" in guarded/tesla towered areas and everything else will be defined by the players.

I think the devs should remember that when you try to please everyone, you lose everyone and the best thing to do is doing it the way you believe in. Open world all the way, come on.

 

We all do have different personalities, and cultural backgrounds. Some people are more competitive than others. Some people have positive attitudes, others negative. Some people are optimists, and others are pessimists.

Dying in PvP (two different approaches)
The person who says, "oh I always get killed, and these guys are all too good for me..." is not likely to enjoy a highly competitive game of PvP. Other people in the very same situation say "That guy was lucky, I'm going to reequip and find the guy." for this person it isn't over.

There's nothing wrong with either perspective. One likes PvP one doesn't. However some people like to play the flute and have intellectual pursuits, and I've know some people like that who think hard core sports is for neanderthals. (I think that is a harsh judgment, and not true).

There are also people who really enjoy playing full contact sports. A person not willing to go 100% in a full contact sport sets themselves up for injury. Not all people are wired to play full contact sports. Even people who like to watch full contacts sports, or maybe played a little in high school would not be able to handle College or Pro level of that sport. It takes a type of personality (It isn't all physical)

I accept the fact that not all people are wired the same. It isn't a bad thing, but there is a mentality or a desire to get some kind of rush in these games with PvP. Others don't get that rush, and they might not ever because it takes different wiring in the brain to want to fight through the losses.

 

Brains are wired differently.

http://brainrules.net/wiring
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140611093244.htm
http://www.brainpaths.com/howthebrainwires.html

 

Interesting as there is no game without the environment... that's what the 'E' stands for in PvE. Crafting is PvE and so is about everything else except of course whacking others with spell and sword. This is not a 'PVP thread' it is about far more than just hitting other folks. That is where the ignorance resides, in deep misunderstanding by some on how the game as a whole functions and all it's components affect each other.

I encourage you to look at the big picture.

PVP affects gathering of resources, purchasing of goods, travel, grief, time, death and for me general annoyance if it's an all the time thing.

Death affects everything in the game from the top down. It is THE consequence and is in no way exclusive to a PVP participant. It has a ripple effect to a player that impacts his/her time, resources, experience points and general game enjoyment just to name a few things.

I don't see this thread as a 'PVP thread' in any way.

You should hang out in what you refer to as 'PvE threads'. It can only help with a well rounded education on the thoughts of your fellow players. They affect you and your game whether you choose to admit it or not.


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ok when i say PVE im talking about rolling around with no fear of anything except NPC's and Generated monster mechanics, and the in game quests themselves , i have all that in single player games!
I did hang out in PVE threads, and still got flak from them even though, i came to a medium point, some people just like to argue, even if they have a choice not to participate in PVP. Which is funny because its basically PVP in these threads you all have so much potential and most refuse to recognize it! (edit part) and honestly those players your talking about really dont effect me, the slider keeps them out of my way! But by all means fight that to the max as well! I think the difference between you and I personally is, that i welcome the challenge, which you do not, im not afraid to wear my best gear out in the open which you are, and if i get fully looted that means that someone was actually a challenge in the game! and they deserve it!

 

~It's About the Fight to the Death, Where the Walk Meets the Talk~
Our New Britannia's "Gladiator Wars"!

Our first world championship is about to begin...
Don't miss out and don't miss your chance to be a true Ultima champion
Where the Truth of Metal Meets the Meat!
~Time Lord~

 

Anecdotal evidence and unscientific polls are not a sound basis for this judgement. Have you conducted a scientific poll? May I see your numbers and methdology, please? I'm sure Portalarium would also be interested in your findings.

I have... Quite a lot of it... on the express promise that you're not going to get what you want.

I think the developers have considered all of this, prior to the start of the Kickstarter, and determined that they were not going to do as you wish. Attack anyone you wish to who's consented to be attacked. Have fun. You just won't be able to do the same to those that don't wish to play your game, or play your game at that time. If this makes you unwilling to support the title, so be it. I'm sure you'll find something to your liking elsewhere.

 

Awww, Thanks tekkamansoul.

Just sharing some RL Gaming XP from playing games & running my team for 12 years. As the leader I get the ear full on Vent/Teamspeak on what members like/dislike about each game. It can get very heated. lol!

Glad you enjoyed the post Caska DiFumarate.

You make a good point & bring up one as well. I can see where your coming from. The real question is this a purely "Competitive" Game vs "Cooperative/Competitive" game mix? What will this game be? Are we all vs each other? Is everyone my enemy that I must run up tag/steal mobs, bosses, resource nodes away from each other? Been there done that, not only does it cause massive drama, its really not fun for all but a few. Who is really your enemy? Mine is = Poor Gameplay.

Competitive games: (Like Lineage & WOW Open World PVP servers)
1) Fighting over resource nodes: Someone is killing a mob to get the node & someone else runs up and takes it. Only 1 person can get the node. (This is the no 1 complaint i've heard over the years, many a fight has started over this)
2) "Standing in line" to kill a boss: For what ever "Special Item" your looking for, such an immersion killer. Or waiting 8 hours for a rare mob to spawn because only 1 person can get it per day.
3) "Camping" & "Ganker Camping": Entrances/Exits, Rez Areas, Outside main cities, Quest/Vendor NPC's (Grief play)
4) "Lowbie Killer": Able to kill people in the starter/low level zones which will cause some players to simply say "No thanks" to the game after they are unable to progress. Or start the "you killed our Player(s)" so we got 5-10 people and killed your team. Now your upset with getting killed by our 10 people so you go get your 30 people, etc... Fun for a few, annoying to everyone else in the area.
5) Annoyance & Disruption play: Dueling in town next to people who are just trying to craft or play PVE components. Best to have Duels & PVP out of main towns away from other players to reduce irritation. Also disrupting normal game play by killing some or all of the NPC's in an area (unable to progress with Quests or talk to NPC to buy items). I found in Linage they had "Training/PVP" areas that I really loved. The team would go into these areas and PVP to practice for larger battles. Create a Dueling arena and put it away from the main town area. I really don't want to be constantly listening to people duel in town.

Cooperative/Competitive play mix: GuildWars 2
1) Everyone gets the resource node (yeah, drama reduced by 95%)
2) Encourages players to help each other: Such as getting XP for rezing each other. I'm so use to rezing people now that I don't even think about it. I've gained many a new friend from something so simple as this.
(vs the flip side of "I don't want to rez this guy as I get nothing out of it or i'll grab the resource node first & the boss he was going for & then rez him. Thats just too bad for him (this makes me cringe)")
3) Everyone in Area can hit boss & everyone gets the reward. (Yeah! No more 2-8hour boss line waiting!) You don't even need to be in Party/Raid! You play, you work together, you have fun and get rewarded.
4) I can PvP or WvW (World vs World) when I choose to. The battles in WvW are on a epic scale with 100's of players battling it out across 3 servers.
5) No Repair costs (Yep, thats right, never have to pay)

I can go on & on about the reduction in tedium in a Cooperative/Competitive mix game vs a purly Competitive play game. Its easy to go either all one way or the other, but the real challenge is find a balance that lets people choose the adventure they wish to have. Because thats what Fantasy games are all about. Making it into the players adventure, not forcing them to play a certain way. I remember that feeling the first time I opened Ultima IV, it was the start of "My" adventure and I loved it.

*Raises glass to Lord British* Here's hoping for a good balance!