SPO and SP Offline

We are not the minority - it probably has more to do with - folks interested in the single player aspect - story lead are not paying attention at the moment because of the past 3 releases

- Been here from the start and there are a lot of folks interested / invested monetarily in this game precisely because of the single player experience

- Folks just need to be more vocal : )

 

I think there's a valid concern, in that people can't really see how this game will have the detail, lore, and intimacy of the single player games, since it feels some of it will have to be compromised.

I see this from two angles, though:

* If the devs don't realize this already, I think MMO players are hungry for a game that has the richness of a single-player game. This is what a lot of fans of the Elder Scrolls series expected with ESO, and many ended up very disappointed, because to those who expected that it just felt like a generic MMO with an Elder Scrolls skin. If all SoTA turns out to be is another generic MMO, with some better combat mechanics and PvP mechanics, I think it'll be a lot less popular and successful than if SoTA is able to capture what made the single-player Ultimas well-loved, simply because it'll have less to offer and will stand out less in the crowd.

* When I play single-player games, and they go to the point of including a really detailed interactive world where there's player housing, and where you're let to customize your character to a great extent, I'm always wishing that I could share my game with my friends online. Also, after the main storyline is over, I always wish I could go on adventures in that world with my friends, so the game doesn't end and I don't have to stop playing. So, I believe the multi-player aspect can greatly enrich the single-player aspect and make a lot of the interactivity in a single-player game feel more worthwhile.

Personally, from what I've heard from RG over the course of the development of SoTA, I've come to believe he agrees with these two points, and its one of the reasons he wanted to combine multi-player and single-player to begin with.

 

The problem I have with this way of thinking is that, for the most part, those who are worried don't seem to understand how game development works.

Allow me to clarify:
They're simultaneously building a single-player game and an MMO. If you look at these elements separately (which, in SotA's case, they're not), both of these types of games require content. A story, NPCs, quests, dungeons, etc.

In typical video game development, content doesn't get added in until WAY later in production as they need to have everything else figured out before they can actually do stuff with it. How do you design a good dungeon if you don't have proper hit detection for combat, for example?

So, if you're building a single game that is both single-player and an MMO, you'd probably want to have all of your systems working before you put it story and whatnot. Considering that the MMO portion requires a LOT of systems (server, client, PvP, economy, etc), it makes sense for them to focus on that right now.

This is normal dev behavior. It's just scary because the general public is not used to seeing a game in its naked, featureless state.

Making "noise" to have your voice heard, at this point, seems pointless. As a dev, I'd much rather read comments related to to the stuff I'd be working on at this stage of development: such as the systems that are currently in the game.... as opposed to read comments about stuff I haven't begun implementing yet.

 

@Gix

Our community is a little different - most people here know game development (not me but i've learned a lot) - I'm pretty sure Redfish is in that group

To add to the point of Elder Scrolls - which is something that I've written about in the past - thus purposely straying from the topic - the Ultima series had a unique flavor to it - somewhat formulaic - but very unique and at times refreshing.

What many are picking up here is simply this - its hard to imagine how it "ties in" - how can you have both / and yet be packaged as one.

We have seen what happened to Elder Scrolls - Don't want that to happen here - so the simple question is - how are they different from the "Elder Scrolls Online" school of thought (if you can even say that of course)

What will make SoTA a true Ultima Series experience? And I hope the answer is not - "just play it in single player mode" -

 

To say it is pointless to make any noise on this would be silly.

We have already seen how things have changed for the PVP side just because they have made noise. When people shrug and say they should do what the most people want, what they really mean the most people who agree with them and are loudest on the forums.

 

Come on, you know it's not as simple as that. You have to have some story and lore to decide why you even would have a dungeon of a specific type in a specific location in the first place. The reason for certain monsters, what magic is a part of the world and how it works. You're thinking too much like a sandbox MMO. I still have hope that SoTA is not just a sandbox MMO.

Granted there's a back and forth and some things yes have to wait. But figuring out the precise architecture of a dungeon is not necessarily a story issue and things can be a little more interrelated than they at first seem.

 

Lets just hope that they expand upon the combat system more. How could they not?

 

I don't think we're even at dungeons yet, except for the small plot elements they've put in the game to test out the conversation system and combat system.

I think we're at very basic game mechanics like combat -- weapon damage, quality, and durability -- magic, reagents, and alchemy -- both the PC and NPC (vendor) economy... and these are all things that matter both for the single-player game and the multi-player game. So I don't see the fact that they're focusing on these things -- on their own -- as any evidence that they're forgetting the single-player aspect of things.

But, no, I admit, I'm not at all confident either yet that everything they're working on so far meets up to the standards of the single-player games. In U7, the loot you expected off a dead body is what they were fighting with. If an enemy was wearing plate mail and using a long sword, you'd get plate mail and a long sword. This "paper-dolling" aspect of the single-player games was important. In SoTA so far, you just get some weapons that resemble what the enemy was using. We aren't getting the elven armor, but I guess that's in part because they offered it as a pledge feature for the stretch goal? And Starr also talked about how the loot would be calculated based on tables, and it wouldn't be personal to the fighter.

If you've read my comments in other threads, one of the reasons I've been an advocate for the free form bag system is because the role it played in the plot of single-player games. You had to sometimes dig through bags to find hidden keys.

And all the combat areas are just now bland combat areas, with random enemies in them, who have no real reason to be there except to be encounters for people to get loot from.

But, its not as if the MMO players don't want these aspects of single-player Ultima in their MMO game. And I also pretty confident the devs are working on the lore aspect of the game behind the scenes. So I don't see it as a MMO vs SP issue...

But there is a decent a question of to what degree the devs understand that these small things were important to the richness of the single-player experience... that these issues of game mechanics aren't just issues of game mechanics, but also affect story-telling.

 

That's true. But unless they're simple dungeons for a generic instance, I hope that the story is rich enough to support a reason for why things are the way they are. Time will tell whether their vision for all this comes to fruition. Even if they're not revealing it, there better be some story thought behind it, unless we're talking about purely technical concerns like instancing.

Another simple example of story and mechanics interaction was the discussion about one character per account and why that was important. It wasn't just a purely technical issue to get in place and consider how it fits in SP/MMO - both could have pros and cons. It was originally to reinforce the story idea of being an avatar. But that of course changed to a purely mechanics based decision, so you see my concern. It is what it is and it's their choice to make, but story and mechanics do interact.

 

I want to address this issue in particular, because I was one of the people on the forums arguing that it would be good if... at least some time in the progress of the game... we could create alternate characters. That doesn't mean I advocated doing it the way they ended up doing it (two main characters per account), but hear me out on this...

Just as I didn't want them to neglect the single-player experience for MMO, I also didn't want them to neglect an important part of MMOs.. which is for players to be able to create their own world and their own stories. Basically, my thinking on this is that once we're done with the main storyline, we'll want to role-play in a variety of ways, from opening up shops to participating in guilds.But I like the idea of expanding from that even further.. and turning the players into story-tellers, which means having the players be a part of building the lore of the world and populating the world. As a MMO, Richard Garriott and Tracy Hickmann are not the only authors of the story, all of the players get to be the authors, too.

I didn't expect them to add two main characters per account.. RG seemed pretty firm on this. At one point he was saying that maybe we could get an additional character after we fully played through Episode 1. Personally, I was thinking at least more along the likes of later being able to customize hirelings, and so on, to make them full personalities.. and then we could use them to populate the world and put in player-created content. So -- as an example -- one MMO I've played in Star Trek Online, and one feature in STO I've played around with is The Foundry. In that system, anyone can create their own "episodes," which are stories, that other players can play through. They also get rated and good player-created content gets advertised on their website. I was thinking that maybe we would be able to do this without an "episode" system, but just by populating the game world.

So that's the direction I was thinking of. I never really cared for the idea of two characters just to "try out different playstyles."

 

The sad aspect of this is that - with easy respec - there really is no need for multiple characters

 

It actually IS as simple as that. A dungeon is not necessarily a story issue but it's most definitely a design and tech issue. The challenge is to make everything work with the technology (which still isn't 100% established for SotA, so another reason not to put content in yet) and implement rules and mechanics that do what you ultimately intend ~ you know, because it doesn't always turned out as planned.

In game development, a lot of levels/maps get scrapped out of the game before it ships (even if the work is 60% done) because they simply ran out of time. Why is that? Because that's the last thing they do when building a game. Putting the stuff in. This game is structured with hexed areas... Most of them look the same right now... you know where I'm going with this....

Ever played Warcraft or Starcraft? Ever wondered why or how Blizzard ended up publishing the game with a map editor? Because that's the tool they used to make the campaign. Once everything is in place, it's so easy to build content because they build their maps just like we do... Well, not exactly, they most likely had to polish the map editor before releasing the game and they most likely had to work with a buggy piece of crap. The story for Warcraft III, for example, was already fleshed out before they even thought of making the game... because it's the refurbished script they had planned for "Warcraft Adventures", a game they scrapped years ago.

So, I must ask, what makes you think Portalarium don't already have a story? I can just imagine a movie production where no one on set actually have a story until they start filming. It doesn't work that way. You plan stuff out, you storyboard, you cast your actors, then you film.

How is this concept so hard to grasp? I mean, sure, it might seem obvious to me because I work in the field but how is it done in other professions? Build a bridge without testing how structurally sound it may or may not be? "Hmm, this bridge doesn't look like it'll hold cars!" "It's a model".

Again, just because it's not implemented in the game yet, that doesn't mean it hasn't been planned out. That plan will most likely be re-interrated multiple times before they get to putting it in the game. There's just no point of doing it until the systems are all in place.

Not to mention it allows the writing team to nail their stories.

You plan stuff out while the infrastructure is being built, then you put your stuff in the game. Very few developers will do the infrastructure without already having a plan of what they're trying to accomplish (there's just too much money involved to simply go in blindly)... even so (lets assume that Portalarium doesn't know what they're doing as far as the story goes), the infrastructure still comes first.

That, ladies and gents, is what an Alpha build is for. The MMO part, as we put it, is merely delaying the content because there's just so many systems to implement.

The decision to add multiple characters per account is purely a gameplay decision. That is NEVER a bad thing... nor does it have any impact what-so-ever if you decide for forgo the extra character slot. The game, with its story and characters, remains un-affected.

 

No one here disagrees with the premise or purpose of an alpha stage - what many of us are talking about is a direct comparison to - ultima 7 and ultima underworld / with a mix of 5 and 4 .... Not games like Warcraft or Starcraft

Not sure how long you have participated in the forum / or have been a member - but the jist of it all is simply - how can they marriage Ultima 7 with an MMO LIKE experience ... again no one is missing your point / in fact many would agree

 

On a second note -

My biggest concern is simply - once you get a large mass headed in a direction - it may prove too difficult to adjust its course ... and divert it to former expectations/plan at the onset (this can leave a bad taste in peoples mouths - especially if they spent money to support a concept)

 

ewwww alts

 

The instanced areas are genius. Do you realise how easy and how much content can be added using this?

You will end up with more adventure areas then if you had a giant map. Its a fair trade off

 

Not sure if this is directed at me - but I have no issues with instancing - that was part of the original concept

 

I don't get the impression that anyone understands, to be honest. Otherwise, no one would be saying "Oh noes! They put cool-downs on abilities because of MMOs! NPCs are dumb MMO-style NPCs because there aren't any companions yet! The chat isn't intimate yet, it must be because of MMOs!"

Wasn't the main argument that the game already had compromised too much to be an MMO? The OP giving specific examples of how he/she sees the game in its current state? If you understand how much incomplete the game is, and understand how everything you associate Ultima 7 to (as a single-player experience) is the CONTENT, then why are you guys worried about something that isn't scheduled to be implemented until way later?

Or are you actually suggesting that what was done in Ultima 7 (as far as systems goes) cannot be implemented in an MMO?

If you're just wondering how much SotA will inherit from each previous Ultima games, well it seems that you're in the wrong thread because this one clearly states that the game compromised too much "because the current build doesn't have it yet"... and blames MMOs for it.

How can they blend Ultima 7 with an MMO-like experience, you ask?
The answer is quite simple: you structure your game as a single-player game while providing basic MMO features (friends list, persistent world, player-based economy, PvP). The hexes and the instancing are all there to enhance the single-player experience within an MMO infrastructure... not to mention it's cheaper to do and less taxing on the servers.

Dark Souls is a good example. While it isn't an MMO, it does have a seamless online component with a PvP system and a co-op feature, yet it remains strictly a single-player game.

I'm not sure I follow. If you're talking about Portalarium changing things around and people are disappointed because that's not what they expected is one thing. Portalarium changing things from what they specifically talk about in their kickstarter video is another.

 

You are right, I hadn't thought about loot... This is very sad if they use a calculated method instead of giving us the items you see the enemy is using.
Another compromise done in favor of the MMO-part. It would destroy the economy if you could find ten plate mail and seven two-handed swords ect. after a battle. But you have to sacrifice realism and atmosphere for it.

 

It wouldnt if it was damaged or sub par to crafted gear...be just another way to harvest resources