Magic and Alchemy - the essence of a compromise

I think RG at some point did talk about weather conditions effecting elemental magic.

 

All i know is. I would like to use musical instruments to confuse monsters. If this comes under magic, then i love it!

 

Try casting fire magic in heavy rain.. or water/ice type spells in the desert. Something to make you go.. "hmmmm..."

 

All this could be avoided if we were able to build skills as in other games. Investing enough time to advance in magic skill could negate the need for reagents as more level is gained. But alas, it is just a dream.

 

Interesting idea tieing crafting to reagents. This I think can go somewhere, but tbh I don't like how you've implemented it in the OP. I don't see any difference in the consumption system, yours just requires another step (Plus crafting).

Let's talk more about crafting and reagents though.
I like the idea of high level reagent bags that have a percent chance to eschew. Like, 1-5 percent or something.

 

you guys mean we have no bard skills ?!

Why is someone wishing to confuse monsters with music... thats is a bard skill !!

Please tell me this is already planned and announced...

 

I love mages and I HATE crafting, so any proposal which turns magic into crafting (like pre-mixing spells) will not get my vote. Yuck.

 

sad day for you usually the shops are called Magic and Crafts

wahahahha

 

Moved to Skills and Combat section.

 

I know that in lore, witches cook up spells (probably using reagents and other items). Perhaps Voodoo people do too (guessing). I never imagined, however that Merlin, Harry Potter, or Tinkerbell carried around a bag of reagents. I guess I am confused, but it seems to me that reagents are used to create potions, powders and such for Alchemical use, and mastering a skill is for wand use. I know that UO required reagents for spell casting. Other than UO, is there evidence that a Harry or Tinkerbell had to fool around with reagents cast spells with a wand?

It has been a while since I read Harry Potter, but I remember him learning how to use mandrake to make a potion. This is alchemy in my book. However when he swung spells from his wand, did he have reagents in his pocket?

 

Harry and Tinkerbell never lived in Britannia. Reagents have been a part of the world since Ultima IV. You can't expect magic to work exactly the same way across every unrelated story ever written.

 

:/

Tinkerbell uses fairy dust, or pixie dust as its described in the movie, because she's a pixie. In the more recent sequels this is referred to as starstuff.

When she ran out of it, she couldn't use magic anymore.

 

Thanks for the catch.. Tinkerbell's fairy dust was like a universal potion I guess. Somehow I had a memory of her flying around with a wand. Please don't tell me Tinkerbell wasn't a she. I have to hang on to some of these memories, even though they may be faulty.

 

Merlin gandalf radaghast all use reagent and crystals in their magic... but only fror certain spells, the others are memorised and long crafty rituals which leave them depleted for days

I like the essences idea... however as I said with all game systems it shouldn't be all fixed... the technology needs to evolve in game because people are just going to fill the vendors and look on the wikis how to make this and that recipe...

As with all crafts I suggest multi-step revealing of recipes, allowing certain level of characters to reach the higher essences as the technology is discovered in game.

Also do not let EVER the items gotten from PvE into the FULL PVP crowd... pretty please no interference to my immersion !!!

 

I found that the complexity of reagent mixing in the prior ultimas kept me from fully exploring the magick system. To put it bluntly, I didn't care enough to keep finding out more. I've encountered plenty of systems wherein the "tradition" of magick did not call for any kind of reagent at all.

I would suggest that ALCHEMY be able to utilize and pre-prepare some spells, but that MAGICK not rely solely on reagents. That way, there are some spell abilities that do not require the reagent dance, but for those who wish to indulge in the complexity of crafting with reagents, much more potent effects can be constructed. This would also feed both the player market of custom effects and reagents, and allow for the "point and click" crowd to get to playing the game quickly.

Those of us who wish to design fast moving combat characters can do so without being bogged down by a need for complex reagent stocking, those who wish to delve into the powers of magick can do so with multiple routes and tools.

 

You could have said all that without saying you didn't care... I can hear the laughter of distant mages, they're not offended but amused.

Magic is the path of knowledge and all of it should be about finding more... thats what it is, not another machine gun you wave around. What you're speaking of is wands, simply put... with charges that can be emptied at will, and not true magical power.

I really like the intention for compromise you have tho, but it isn't suffiscient to remove the pressure from that crowd who wants it all simple "cause they don't care". People like your humble companion get crushed under that pressure, and I hear everyone is of value here.

Mages that "didn't care" didn't even make it through the tower of high sorcery, and every other roleplaying example you can muster that is even remotely badass (read interesting).

 

People should note that with pre-mixing as proposed.. is entirely optional. Think of it as an optional method of organization, Nothing stops you from simply using raw reagents if processed reagents without mixing..

 

Technically all three were capable of using significant magicks without foci or reagents, unless you count magick words as a focus. Merlin's power came from knowledge, mostly the fact that he was aging backwards and could remember the future. Thus the entirety of science was his to tap, for any convenient recipes that might be lieing about him. Mallory did not have him scrounging for various arcane materials before he was able to do his thing, since that would have further bored his audience. Merlin was a deus ex machina that allowed for the Arthurian legend. Radagast and Gandalf were literally angels sent down to clean up the mess, their power came from the divine song, a force that had created Middle Earth from pure sound, and while they did imbue certain things, they tended to just use what was lieing around. Gandalf didn't need PINE CONES to cast fireball, he just found them convenient to ignite because he was in a pine tree. The fact that the fire spread on contact with any substance and could not be extinguished was the magick. Radagast had facility with enchanting animals, but he was able to use whatever animal was convenient to hand. I never saw them use specified reagents, and never once did Tolkein have them cry out for specific ingredients they lacked to cast.

I'll see your laughter of distant mages and raise you with the disdain of ascendant beings who think people using plant bits to channel mystic power is primitive and infantile. There are hundreds of systems of mystic power available in the mythos backgrounds of Earth, completely ignoring modern writers in fantasy fiction. Many of them did NOT use reagents, or even foci. Those adaptations were popularized by D&D, which isn't even the best or most loved of RPG systems. Endlessly mimicking it because it existed when we all started gaming doesn't do magick justice, nor is it in any way virtuous. I LOVE exploration of magick, I get bored with shopping for vegetables.

I am unapologetically, completely, 100%, not a fan of reagent use systems. I'll use them, but I already know where they go. You find (through extended research and experimentation) your ideal group of spells, stock up on them, and that's that. In systems that do not require pre-preparation rituals like memorization, wand charging, and reagent stocking, creativity and improvisation flow freely. This results in a much more dynamic and interesting world. But hey, it's not all about pleasing me.

I'm just saying that reagents aren't all roses, there ARE people out there that will laugh at the primitive vegetable mages who become suddenly powerless because they ran out of this or that root. Those people represent player base and ongoing money to support the game. Feel free to exclude them.

 

Er, no, but mankind did, does and will continue to do so?

Just because it is some modern trend in RPGs doesn't mean they invented it from the thin air. Man has always used reagents and foci in ritual magic since forever.

It would be ignorant to ignore that really.

 

SOME parts of mankind have used reagents, and MOST parts have used foci, and last time I checked, there was not a shred of evidence supporting the existence of REAL magick. If you can actually control arcane powers by powdering various root vegetables, go take it to the papers. Spread the word. If all we are talking about is gabbling new-agers and wanna-be witches trying to emulate the primitive religious practices of the past, that is of significantly less value.

There are systems of religious belief and mystic ceremony in real human history that never placed value on any particular material, food, or substance, using any old mud off the ground, using gestures and words and song, things that originate from the one performing the ceremony, not from some shaman's medicine bag. They are just as valid.

Once again, my point is that reagents are not the only possible way, and slavish dedication to them can significantly HURT SotA. As a video game system, reagents will have to be balanced to avoid people just stocking up at the supermarket every so often and completely ignoring them, but in so doing we inevitably start hitting limits wherein magick itself becomes limited, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.