Magic and Alchemy - the essence of a compromise

Magic and Alchemy - the essence of a compromise

So I was thinking about how to solve the Richard vs Chris argument on reagents.

Spoiler: rambling on reasons

On one hand we have the traditionalists who want all magic to always cost reagents - if you don't have them you can't cast.
However Chris' fear is that this means that it is very hard to balance the amount of reagents versus other expendables, and costs, hence his proposal that casting has a % chance of costing reagents - that way the devs can balance the % over time.
But the counter argument from Richard is that a % isn't fun, and that it breaks with the Ultima feel.

Then you have the whole argument that combat has to be accessible, so therefore you cannot have too much complexity behind it. So if you need reagents from beginners they will not try out magic.
Hence why you can currently cast spells with no reagents at all.

Etc back and forth you have probably all heard the arguments before.

Since I'd like the full reagent approach but as a dev myself I understand Chris' fears I put on the thinking cap for a while.
What I came up with was to solve it using a combo of economy and crafting.

How about this:
Spells always use a consumable. This consumable is either Reagents or Essences (see below).
So a novice fire mage learning the ropes of the fire magic tree would only need to bring one consumable: Essence of Fire instead of a bunch of them according to the first spells.

Using pure reagents is better (maybe 100% for low level spells and maybe 20% for high level spells). But its more complex to carry (need all reagents), takes more encumbrance and is much more costly. Not to mention that some reagents seem to perish so quality would be an issue.

While if you use essence, you only go by amounts.

How you make essence is through Alchemy Crafting, you purify the reagents down to its underlying essence.

Spoiler: crafting and economy

There would be one essence per school of magic and 4 extra for high level magic.
You use alchemy recipes for the purification to essence. Each recipe takes a number of reagents and results in an amount of essence of X with a small RNG on it. (Then Chris could balance first on production, ie how much essence is produced, and then again on consumption).

This means that essence can be produced, sold and bought in bulk. It would also not spoil.

It would also make it possible to add other reagents or other objects to craft into essence. For instance the heart of a dragon could be turned into a big amount of Essence of Fire. While in the other end a large amount of fish could be turned into a small amount of Essence of Water.

This means that the low level firemage only needs to bring a big bag with essence of fire. Small spells like Flame Arrow consume a handful "ounces of fire essence", while a fireball would consume many "ounces of fire essence". (Again here the amounts can be balanced, not only within trees but also between schools. )
The economy would also adjust to the popularity of spells, making it auto-balance by the market supply/demand/price.

So for the casual point-and-click crowd, you only need to purchase one thing per mage school and be done with it.

Spoiler: high level spells rant

One tier up it becomes a tad more complicated, when it comes to high level spells you have 4 more essences. (I looked through the existing spell trees and these 4 cover all).
Portia - summon and banish
Potentia - unleashing of higher power
Fabrica - building, fixing, mending or constructing
Flucta - flow, change or reversal

So as a high level firemage, I'd need some bags of essence of fire, but to cast a summon spell I'd need essence of Portia as well. While the ring of fire would need essence of Fabrica.
The beauty of this is by stacking my combat deck right, even a high-level druid could get away with stocking up with only 5-6 bags of essences.
Long term you'd learn your decks consumption rates and can buy & stock accordingly.

Another beauty of this is if you want to learn a new school it would suffice to only add 1 more bag of essence.

Spoiler: lesser reagents

Another idea out of this is that one could have "lesser" reagents, these cannot be used directly as pure spell reagents. But instead there is lesser purification alchemy recipes where large amounts of the lesser reagents still make Y amount of essence. This way the team can introduce new reagents without disrupting balance in E2-5.
Lets say you found a dragons heart - while you couldn't find a spell with that reagent, you could definately put it on your alchemy table and purify it to essence of fire and potentia. Leading to a diverse economy and lots of fun trying to find recipes of essence.

So in summary, it would make balancing easier while keeping the purist crowd happy. It would build an economy which will act like a gold sink.

Plus if you are a casual player it's easier, and even at higher levels you can buy yourself out of the underlaying complexity.

Spoiler: Ideas of names

Essentia Stella
Essentia Vita
Essentia Luna
Essentia Letha

Essentia Terra
Essentia Aqua
Essentia Aura
Essentia Ignita

Essentia Portia
Essentia Potentia
Essentia Fabrica
Essentia Flucta

X

 

Spoon,

Its an interesting approach, but I'm not sure how essences would be less of a hassle carrying than reagents, since in Ultima lore, reagents are basically like essences -- each has a particular magical quality that it gives to a spell. Roughly, from the earlier games: Black pearl = energy. Blood moss = movement. Garlic = protection. Ginseng = restoration. Mandrake = power. Nightshade = illusion or poison. Spider silk = binding. Sulfurous ash = energy.

The Words of Power typically singled out elements, like Flam for fire, or Frio for cold. If we're not going to be actively using those, it might make sense to have some elemental reagents, sure, or in your terms, essences. It would also make sense because it helps separate the schools a bit more and allows mages to easily specialize in one school, while making it harder to specialize in many.

The main advantage of your system to me would that you could have a greater amount of reagents in the world, of different varieties, potency, and size. These would containing the same power or essence when refined, though mages wouldn't be forced to worry about that if they didn't want to, since they could go straight to the essences by buying them from a vendor.

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering if you saw my suggestion on this.. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/reagent-potency-potion-doses.14331/

If you did, what do you think about it? What would be a good idea? What would be a bad idea? Would it work well with what you're proposing?

Also, what would you imagine essences to be physically? Elemental salts, like in the Elder Scrolls?

 

sounds like Thaumcraft in Minecraft. You just fill up essence jars and manipulate that later in whatever effect/spell/ritual you need.

Certain elements (reagents) give varying amounts of essence, some have mixes of essence, and even between items the levels of essence obtained from the reagents can vary (quality, damage, etc...).

You also have entire metagames to purify items prior to turning into essence and maximizing the essence obtained from items.

Some items also give byproducts that have nothing to do with essence, which then turns into another metagame for getting rid of byproducts (secondary market for other things like food, construction materials, etc...)

If magic in SOTA was even 1/5th that of thaumcraft I would champion magic.

http://thaumcraft-4.wikia.com/wiki/Thaumcraft_4_Wiki


Cheers.

 

Haven't played... what's the application in combat magic ? Making wands?

 

Because in the beginning you'd only carry one resource, the essence of the school you are trying to learn.
No need to gather 5-6 reagents to learn the basics of a school.
So it decreases the threshold for beginners - while keeping the complexity for those who dig into the lore.

Yes that is how it has used to be, and still could be if you run pure and do all out reagents. But all of those can be summed up in the four I mentioned for high level spells.

In my tirade above I'm only talking about the expendables - all thoughts on glyphs or whatnots that the team has mentioned remains the same.

Exactly. Easy for those who want it easy. Complex for those who want it complex. I'm trying to cater to all.

lol some of this is directly derived from that. I was thinking - that's a good direction, but... It doesn't sound simple to beginners with no previous Ultima experience, instead it sounds more complex. But what if one took the principle of the "hit points" and...
So one could say this was inspired by your idea. But twisted.

In my thinking a mandrake is a mandrake, resource gatherers wouldn't care if it is 1*8 or 2*4 or 4*2 or a mix, they would only care that the sum would be 8.

Doesn't matter, but in my head it would be different things for different essences. Life would be a salve. Fire would be a powder. Water would be a liquid, etc.
But that is just the icing on top of the cake. I'm more worried about the spongie part tasting nice for all users.

 

Why not just have an alchemist grind them into a potion bottle using 50 ginseng = 100 shot Flask. the weight could be minimal.
Its just like a stack of arrows, the amount of shots per reagent could be higher for the low level regs and high/rare regs on a 1 to 1 basis.
I still think each spell needs a set amount & type of reg requirement to cast a spell no easy options, nearly every other MMO offers that now.

 

Forgot to add one thing above. When going through the current spells and reagents, you can see that some schools use some reagents much more often. You could also see that some reagents are used almost exclusively for a specific type of spells. Ectoplasm for summining/banishing for instance, or a lot of sulphur in the Fire tree of coure.
Hence why most of those could be summed up instead.
If fire magic is weighted towards using lots of sulphur and mandrake, then reversing it and having the recipe for Essence of Fire contain lots of sulphur and mandrake would be just as valid.

that would work.

 

I think I had a similar idea brewing in the back of my brain but is more 'traditional Ultima'. Actually a couple of variations now.

According to Ultima canon, all reagents had a preparation process they had to go through. Though after Ultima IV gameplay just let you use the raw reagent. In UIV though you had to pre-mix spells.

If there is a pre-prep process than rather than essence, simply have raw and prepared reagents. Prepped reagents would be more compact and more potent. Making them easier to manage and use. You could take it a step further and pre-mix spells.

In preparing reagents it might give you doses depending on the size and quality of the reagent (if that's a factor). Meaning you guarantee X number of uses vs 1/3 random chance. Thus in pre-mixing you're guaranteeing the maximum possible use of the reagent plus know exactly how many uses you have at the cost of flexibility.

You can still use raw reagents but they might be less stable giving you that random chance of being used up. The lore behind this could be the unknown quality of the reagent. You don't know how many uses you get until it's processed.

I imagine if this was done that most mages would carry a handful of raw reagents to ensure they can cast anything in a pinch, but carry mostly prepared mixes of their favorite spells.

 

Could be similar to the elemental salves I suggested here:
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/magic-salves-enchantments.13696/

Though it makes more sense to me as a type of powder or salt the way you're describing it. Something a mage can carry around in a pouch for ready use, rather than using up a flask or bottle. Could just be a different type of refining process using up the same materials.

Don't know, though. I'd still want there to be a big enough incentive for mages to have to actually deal with reagents instead of ignoring they exist. I don't see a big problem with making it easier for mages, but I don't know that you want to hide the lore from them. That's why I like reagents, so people get engaged in the lore. Why less of a benefit for more powerful spells, and more of a benefit for lesser spells, btw? Whats the thought behind that?

Btw, the idea was just basically the hit point idea; a mandrake could simply be a mandrake, and the varieties was just a twist. But yea, Isaiah was discussing cutting them down to powders and I guess I see where you were going from that :> A fire essence sounds more interesting maybe than a black pearl powder.

 

Prepped how, like ground up or chopped up? Like chopped/ground mandrake ? Or something like "essence of mandrake", "salt of mandrake"?

 

Oh sorry, you're talking about pre-mixing spells entirely. My mistake. I didn't read as well as I could have.

 

Given the changes in magic it really could be anything but according to the Ultima docs.

Black Pearl - Ground into a fine powder
Garlic - washed and ground into paste
Ginseng - must be boiled no less than 40 times.
Mandrake - must be boiled and dried.
Nightshade - Crushed or boiled in tea. (don't get how tea is a spell reagent but whatever).
Spider Silk - 1 ounce per doze

hmm that's all less involved than I remember but still, most reagents had a pre-prep according to earlier lore.

 

No I was talking about both. Just all off the top of my head so I probably could've explained it better. I might start a more in-depth thread after some more thought. I guess I'm looking for first impressions since the end result I thought seemed rather similar to the OP.

 

You craft spells. So, you basically take those items, turn them into essence, then use said essence to generate custom spells, depending on the essences used for certain effects/combinations and the amounts for how much power it will drain and how powerful the result will be etc...

You "can" add those spells to wands, or cast them outright, or imbue other items with them, blah blah blah.

Like I said, it is a ridiculously rich spell system that treats magic as a first class citizen, not as an afterthought to just use in combat.

And that is a fan made modification, open source no less.

 

Problem with pre-prep is that it would scare away the point-and-click crowd and it would make things extra complex for beginners. Meaning that the team would have to keep the low level spells cost-free.
With the essence concept you could start incurring a cost for every spell including the starting ones.
Another problem is that a pre-prep economy is very hard to balance. Would you allow delegation? (as in can you buy pre-prepped fireballs on the market). Then some spells would be more popular than others leading to skewed markets. With the essence it doesn't really matter if one specific spell is more popular it would only skew if a specific school would be more popular.
But that would be easily detectable so that the team could look at balancing issues.

Problem being the combo with the combat-deck system. Carrying raw reagents just in case you'd run out of prepared ones seems like a fizzle waiting to happen.
If I were a mage I'd rather wait a while and pre-prep those as well.
But that would mean I'm tied to exactly the spells I've prepared and leave no room for imagination & improvisation in the field. Something which is OK and fun in single player - but only frustrating in multiplayer and a detract to RP.
"What do you mean you can't throw fire arrow - you are a fire mage, aren't you???"
Then if you could trade pre-prep spells the economy of it would be so many different items - one for each spell. Imagine running around a town trying to find your spell - and its all out since its popular, then you would have to run around again trying to find the reagents, etc.
With the essence concept you'd only have the reagents + 8 commodities for low-mid level mages, and +4 for high level mages.

Haven't played minecraft -was the thaumcraft mod any fun?

I think the essence concept is closer to the lore, than the current implementation, this since having no cost breaks the ultima lore more.
You could still go all pure reagents and kick a heaftier punch - but it would be more tricky.

 

In terms of economy and running around looking for stuff.. this is something mages will have to deal with regardless. If they're buying raw reagents then this is no different than what they have now. A mage's best bet is to develop a relationship with a good supplier and learn how to process and mix their own spells.

What I'm suggesting is that reagents come in 3 stages. Raw, processed and pre-mixed.

Raw is no different than what they've got going now. Possible random chance of being used up but can be applied to any spell.

Processed is more compact and gets you the known number of uses with multiple uses per reagent. You remove the random element but get more than the average number of uses. This is the stage I was reminded of with the essence idea. In both cases you're still processing reagents. Also just as flexible as using raw reagents.

Pre-mixed. In the example of any particular spell being popular.. that is usually an indicator that the spell is over powered and needs to be rebalanced. I would probably add reduced fizzle and maybe faster casting time.

I don't much care for "no cost" either but some Ultimas did have cantrip level spells that had no requirements. None of which are useful in combat. My thinking is rather than no-cost go with the random use of raw reagents. The worry here seems to be availability which processed reagents would help solve with increased usage.

Personally, I think the devs worry a little too much. If they're THAT concerns they should hurry up and start putting tutorials in-game and give testers X amount of reagents during the alphas or something.

 

Preparing spells in advance could solve this problem. Then you would have the use of reagents in the game - even for all spells as you would have to use reagents to prepare a spell.
Disadvantage: mages can only cast those spells they have prepared which could put them in very dangerous situations in combat. This would mean that magic in combat - especially in PvP - would slow down significantly as you cannot cast spell after spell like in a shooter but you would have to use tactics and think when to best use one of your precious spells. Don't know if those interested in fast PvP would like that...

 

"The Key to Successful Bar~BQ is 90% Preparation & 10% Inspiration"

"90% & 10%"
Anything made easy is never valued, it's successful outcome in enjoyment is only standard and it's fulfillment never lingers in any mind to ponder. I do believe there is value within regents, yet that spells should always work, yet without regents they should never be anything more than that of a heavily damaged weapon (which should decrease it's effectiveness). The magical properties of our world should ebb and flow as if having a weather all their own, the more intense the combat, the more of this natural magical essence within the world should be able to manifest itself without the use of regents or the less use of them. This encourages the player to be engaging into any combat with vigor and as vigor has added risks thus should be rewarded in the ways of using less regents. This penalizes those players that have a more cautious style, because they are playing it safe.

All fires need kindling and fuel to keep it going. Our world loves the brave and feeds such a brave Avatar in many other ways and should thus feed the fires of combat by rewarding such intensity with less need for regents to be drawn from. Thus the regents start the fire and the intensity of the player's engagement should continue that fire once kindled.

Anything enjoyed should take on a life of it's own, which would remain in the player's mind because it was prepared for in advance, or mixed on the fly, or forgotten which could never begin such a fire for cooking any good meal worth remembering.
It has always taken 90% Preparation & 10% Inspiration to build any good camp fire to rally around for it's enjoyment...
(BTW: It Did Make Bloody Good Sauce Bowen! )
~Time Lord~

 

This quote can make us think that magic is not about reagents reacting (to produce an effect like alchemy), so much as it is about reagents being keys that grant access to (or channel) a magical effect from the ether beyond. If we accept that to be the case, magic can both be about reagent quality or quantity, as well as 'weather' effects around us, where the magical weather is some magic property found as part of the fabric of the Novia landscape, which can ebb and flow. Perhaps an idea like that could be tied to innate skill buffs coming and going in game in different areas for different purposes.

 

"Weather or Not?"
I like the idea of weather enhancing or inhibiting certain spells, just as much as I like the idea that astrological enhancements and inhibitors can effect our spells.
This would mean at the right time, during the right weather, our spells could rock, or not...
~Time Lord~