Magic and Alchemy - the essence of a compromise

The kind of realism that goes "I'm off to kill 100 enemies so I need 1000 arrows" I just can't get behind. It's not realistic, it's just grindy.

I'm not saying that this game should be like WoW, I'm saying that this game shouldn't hang itself by trying too hard to distinguish itself from WoW by being less accessible. The thing that turns people off from WoW is that you can't affect the world in any way, not that you can cast spells without paying for it.

 

As much as I enjoy UO magic, the reagents never made it for me. But I like the idea of reagents for alchemy more.

Some examples:
- Tailor makes an Inscribed Robe.
- Alchemist imbues the inscription with Sulphurous Ash and Mandrake Root to create an Inscription of Greater Fire
- As you deal fire damage, the robe inscriptions glow brighter and brighter, until you get a buff (Your next fire spell deals X% extra damage)
- The quality of the robe and of the inscription decides how fast it charges.

- Carpenter makes a Runed Staff
- Alchemist empowers the runes with Ginseng and Mandrake Root to create a Staff of Rejuvenation
- The staff is a usable item in a deck while equipped.
- Using the staff provides a buff to your next healing spell.
- Each use reduces the potency of the staff, but will not run out.
- Alchemists can recharge a runed staff using reagents.

- Carpenter makes a Staff
- Blacksmith applies a Focus to the staff (a cut gem)
- Alchemist uses Garlic and Black Pearl to create a Focal Staff of Protection
- The staff is a usable item in a deck while equipped.
- Spells can be dragged onto the staff to charge it (any spells), up to 5 stacks.
- At 5 stacks the staff can be used to provide a short lasting shield to your target.
- What the staff does depends on the reagents and the gem used.
- The staff can be stacked up in a locked slot (with an appropriate cooldown)

 

Yea, reagents as the basis for more permanent magical constructs are a cool idea, and having magic tied to items you wield like weapons more closely also closes the gap with fighters when it comes to gear.

 

Nuh uh.



No I'm just playing, I'll give a real response. Thanks for your debating my point, as I now realize I could have been more clear.

The exclusivity of magic I was talking about was meant in an in-game sense, and not as an actual arduous thing that is of any challenge, or inconvenience to the player (other than the gold they cost, which should be minimal).

From a game immersion standpoint, I want to feel like my character has set about some task or another before they are magically capable, just like I would expect to gear up with equipment suited for any other task.

I am speaking from no experience with the other MMO's you mentioned. With me you're talking to a guy who was playing T2A era free shards regularly just a couple months ago. That being said, I am not a UO traditionalist, and would also like to see anything new the team comes up with.

I do support the reg system though. Cheers!

 

I actually agree that magic is more fun if it's not just a play style you pick because you like the mechanical effects it has, but is something you have to pursue through the story of the game. A good example for this IMO is Gothic 2, where the only way to become a mage is to join the monastery of the fire mages. You have to go through a lot of crap in the monastery before they actually teach you any magic, but the journey is rewarding and fun in its own right.

In an MMO that kind of thing is much harder to pull off though, because people are going to share information rapidly and freely, so the whole notion of "learning the secrets" just isn't a thing in any way. Dedication in MMOs comes in pretty much only two varieties: 1. Having to pass up other equally valuable advancement options on your character. 2. Having to spend enough time on something that some people simply won't do it. The problem with #2 is that now that there are hundreds of online games to pick from nobody is going to go "Don't have the time to be a mage, guess I'll play a warrior", they just play another game where they can be what they want.

 

This is planned for all Trainers of higher tiers.

 

Which is a good way of adding content to the game, but it really doesn't do anything to make the combat system or weird obsession with trying to create an economy by adding a tail of grind to basic gameplay any better.

 

You had a wish that it would work like X. I tell you that X is planned and more. You still find that as a position to rant.
You are clearly upset with other parts of the design than what I have been advocating in the OP and topic.

I'm sorry, but the overall game design comes from Port. My suggestion in the OP etc takes the design parameters as a given and works within that frame to propose how to improve things given those parameters.

I don't think there is any chance that Port will change the core design of the economic system. Every indication we get is for the opposite to be true.

In this case the start if the topic refers to a hangout discussion between Chris and Richard. They proposed either a full reagent approach, or, a reagents are used on a % basis.
If those are the alternatives then my proposal is much more lenient for casual players and gives less of a 'grind' to users, while supporting the crafting system with more options, while still adhering to the given parameters from the devs.

You are discussing something on a completely different level where you want the devs to change the basis of the whole consumable/wearables crafting economy.
So while I can see your points and understand where you are coming from I simply don't see how it relates to this topic?
If the design idea behind the consumable economy changes, then this whole suggestion is moot, it would only go into effect if that is still a given.

 

I said my bit about reagents because talking about trainer locations was going off topic.

I really don't care about all the different ways in which you can implement a fundamentally bad idea. Constant upkeep doesn't add to the game, and it doesn't create an economy. It's like a bunch of people discussing what color they should paint their nuclear zeppelin.

 

Why then is it such a trope within the MMO industry? Almost all the top 20 MMOs with a viable economy utilizes this trope.
If it doesn't create economic transactions don't you think that feature/trope would have been abandoned by now?


Also for the record I'd like my Atomic Blimp in blue and yellow please.

 

Sorry, I just don't see this argument at all. The one MMO I consider notable for it's economy is Eve Online, in which the only direct upkeep cost is ammo, which is only used by some of the weapons in the game, and only accounts for a minuscule portion of the transactions in the game. All major losses of equipment are incurred when ships are destroyed, which is something a savvy player can avoid, unlike gear degradation. The vast majority of such losses in Eve are also incurred by a relatively small percentage of their players that actively participate in large scale wars.

 

I'd like to correct you on a few things in regards to EVE Online real fast. I played the game for about 5 years.

Every gun in the game except for civilian guns use ammo. The Tech 1 laser crystals do not degrade over time so you won't have to change them out, but they do significantly lower damage than faction or tech 2 crystals, which DO degrade over time, so hardly anyone uses them. Ammo is a very significant expense for anyone who rats in EVE Online and there is a roaring trade in ammunition in almost every section of space I've ever flown in (ESPECIALLY in null security space, as often people would rather buy local at a higher price than fly all the way back to a trade hub and risk death).

Anyone who knows anything about PVP in EVE Online overheats their weapon and repair modules in PVP situations as this greatly increases their effectiveness. It also damages them. You can repair this damage using nanite paste, a consumable item that I used to craft heaps of for profit.

You have to pay ISK to insure your ships against destruction, and even then the ISK you get back from insurance isn't the full value of your ship at all, let alone the modules you have fitted and whatever else you are carrying in your cargo bay (nanite paste, ammo, exotic dancers, etc).

The percentage of players that lose ships in EVE Online is way, way higher than you estimated. There is an event that occurs regularly called Hulkageddon, where players suicide gank industrial and mining ships, accruing points for the amount of ISK damage they cause. The winner of this event is often richly rewarded. Not to mention ship losses to NPC's, and the fact that well over half of the playerbase of the game lives in null security or low security space.

It also costs ISK to upgrade your clone. When you die, you activate a clone at whatever your home station is. If you do not upgrade your clone, you lose skillpoints on death. The cost of the clone upgrade goes up with how many skillpoints you have on your character. Getting podkilled also destroys any implants you had in your active clone, which a large amount of players use, once again, because of the advantage they give.

Running a Corporation costs isk. Player-Owned Structures (POS's) use fuel blocks, which costs isk or time-investment to make. Capital ships with jump drives require fuel to operate the drive (Sometimes millions of isk worth per jump) which you must mine or purchase. Activating a Cynosural Field for a jump-capable ship to lock on to, costs fuel.

There are more maintenance costs in EVE Online than any other MMO I have played.

My 2 cents. As for the current reagent system:

I am completely okay with the current reagent system, except for one thing: In comparison to the amount of earnable income, they are disproportionately expensive. Casting Earthquake for example, costs 60 gold worth of reagents (though it is comprised of reagents that can be farmed), and it's not guaranteed to kill the mob or mobs you are fighting. Some spells that use reagents do even less damage/gold spent than earthquake. Considering most mobs drop 10-30 gold on average, this makes use of reagents a net loss in most situations. Even hunting groups of undead at 50g per ectoplasmic residue, this is a net loss.

My opinion is to keep the current system but re-balance reagent costs completely. I personally feel that they are at least 5-10x higher right now than they should be.

 

You're missing the point there. Yes, playing Eve Online has a ton of cost involved in various aspects of the game, but the vast majority of those costs are only incurred once you've actually lost a ship, or taken over a sector of space or taken some other deliberate step to take them on. It isn't simply a flat amount where X amount of fighting requires Y amount of upkeep, completely regardless of how well you do. In Eve the majority of costs are incurred based on risk, not simply for going through the basic motions of the game.

Also it's important to note that Eve is an economy game with some combat tacked on, SotA is a combat game with some economy tacked on.

 

Ammo is not an ignorable expense in eve. Firing your guns requires you to have first purchased ammo. Any ammo worth using isn't dirt cheap, sometimes you're talking 30-50k per shot, for the higher-up laser crystals sometimes you are talking 500k-2m per crystal (which wear out and break so you need backups). Also consider that ships have more than one gun so factor that into your ammo cost. I don't think I missed the point at all, I think you underestimate eve's ammo cost.

Then there's also the fact that you have to buy your ship before you can do anything. Even some of the tech 1 ships (minus frigates which hardly ever get used in EVE PVE) cost between 10-100 million. You can't do much without your ship first. So yeah, there are costs incurred to even enable you to go through the basic motions of the game.

 

Completly agree

 

Here is proof reagents are used for magic.

A dark Cave. In the middle, a Caldron boiling. Thunder.

Enter the three Witches.

1 WITCH. Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
2 WITCH. Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin'd.
3 WITCH. Harpier cries:—'tis time! 'tis time!
1 WITCH. Round about the caldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.—
Toad, that under cold stone,
Days and nights has thirty-one;
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
2 WITCH. Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
3 WITCH. Scale of dragon; tooth of wolf;
Witches' mummy; maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark;
Root of hemlock digg'd i the dark;
Liver of blaspheming Jew;
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Sliver'd in the moon's eclipse;
Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips;
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,—
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingrediants of our caldron.
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
2 WITCH. Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

http://www.potw.org/archive/potw283.html

When Samuel dies, he is buried in Ramah. His successor, Saul, seeks wisdom from God in choosing a course of action against the assembled forces of the Philistines. He receives no answer from dreams, prophets, or the Urim and Thummim. Having driven out all necromancers and magicians from Israel, Saul searches for a medium anonymously and in disguise. His search leads him to a woman of Endor, who claims that she can see the ghost of Samuel rising from the abode of the dead.[1] The voice of the prophet's ghost, after complaining of being disturbed, berates Saul for disobeying God, and predicts Saul's downfall. The spirit reiterates a pre-mortem prophecy by Samuel, adding that Saul will perish with his whole army in battle the next day. Saul is terrified. The next day, his army is defeated as prophesied, and Saul commits suicide.

Although Saul is depicted as an antagonist to witches and diviners, the Witch of Endor generally is portrayed sympathetically; she comforts Saul when she sees his distress and insists on feeding him before he leaves.

The woman is described as "a woman with an ob" (אוֹב, a talisman[2] or perhaps wineskin)[3] in Hebrew, which may be a reference to ventriloquism,[4] and she claims to see "elohim arising" (plural verb) from the ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_Endor

Scapulimancy


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapulimancy

 

Reagents used as an assistant to the perfect execution of a mental abstraction of spell casting. Master mages don't require reagents to cast spells, but adding them to existing spells only amplifies their efficacy. Beginning and mid level mages use reagents as a reference or tool to perform their spells to make up for their ineptitude in spell casting. Beginning and mid level mages can cast spells at terrible effectiveness with no reagents, however, using the amount of required reagents helps them achieve normal results. High level mages (90+) do not require all (or any) of the reagents to cast spells and focus more on the amplification of spells using reagents.

What would be really interesting is being able to customize the amounts of reagents you can use to control the efficacy of the spell. Just an example - a Paralyze spell. You can cast the spell with it's base effect, using the minimum reagents, or you can dedicate more reagents to make the paralyze spell more effective (the fact that it will work on an opponent at all/breaking through magic resistance and paralyzing for a guaranteed 3 seconds) or you can add different reagents to make the duration of the spell last longer, with an average effectiveness that lasts for 10-15 seconds. This might not work against players or tough monsters, but against monsters with low magic resist it will be very effective.

In UO - I enjoyed being able to purchase bulk amounts of reagents and the fact that I used them up quite a bit. In PvP, the 'reg bag' was one of the first things you would go for on a player's corpse. This allowed you to keep fighting if you were low on resources.

 

This would tank the economy. The income gained curve doesn't match the expense curve.
This since your scenario have a cost peak at mid-level when you try high-level spells but have not yet become good enough to lower the use.

Much better with a model with tiered curve which follow the income curve.

So low level mages, using low cost 'essence' or reagents.
Mid level mages, using some low cost and some high cost.
And high level mages, uses almost exclusively high cost 'essence' or reagents. (To be as effective as possible).

 

Would actually like this. Maybe an alchemist could turn 1 Mandrake Root into 10 Small Mandrake Roots and turn 10 Mandrake Roots into 1 Mandrake Root Essence

That way you could force the use of reagents, but they are accessible to everyone, with lesser reagents being very cheap. Plus the array of reagents you need would be based on your range of spells.

 

Exactly.
Easier for casuals. Better for hardcore.
Good for the economy.
Everybody wins.