Has the vision for SotA changed since the Kickstarter campaign?

That's fair. I guess Portalarium could do a blog like the Obsidian folk do for Project Eternity (another crowdfunded single player RPG) which discusses development, shares a few screenshots, maybe gives a hint or two about story direction. I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone who backed SotA for it's single player element and I can see why people are feeling left out or disappointed so I'll give them that.

Maybe Avatars Radio could get an interview with RG and Starr and talk about the single player aspect of SotA for an hour.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if when people did ask they didn't consistently get told to wait and see.

Note, I'm waiting to see...I only posted in here because I knew the results he would get.

I don't think people will or should be expected to be silent if it releases with a very shallow experience.

 

Hi Darkmoon,

I really wouldn't worry to much about the SP mode as I said to another backer a while ago it's almost like reviewing a movie based on the trailer you saw because there is still so much we don't know about the game and probably won't know until the game has been released.
At any case my thoughts regarding your post.

- Shroud of the Avatar is the “spiritual successor” to Richard’s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online, and offer a bold new approach to integrate them with “Selective Multi-Player”.

* With the likes of Richard and Tracy Hickman behind the story why do you feel that the story won't live up to this, Tracy after all is a best selling author in his own right while RG is one of the most successful game designers of all time? (The discussion about Multi-player and Select Multi-player has not changed.)

- Shroud of the Avatar is a Selective Multiplayer game, allowing players to choose how they want to play! Whether in Single-Player Offline mode or any of three online modes, the main quest line will provide greater than 40 hours of focused, story driven content.

* Yes that is correct with the story expanding over further Episodes down the track, pretty good aye?

- Shroud of the Avatar can be played as an offline DRM free solo experience or online, where our servers will enable player to player transactions, group finding, patching, streaming of dynamic content, and exploit prevention.

* Another Win for SOTA wouldn't you agree, despite the internet being readily available to most people these days being able to play in offline mode can be handy and I'm sure there will be times I will make use of this myself.

- Shroud of the Avatar is the first installment of Richard’s new vision and represents the reinvention of the classic, fantasy role-playing which he pioneered. A fantasy role-playing game that will focus more on player choices and discovery than on level grinding.

* I've tried games like Perfect World where they tend to focus on grinding to level up not something I like personally, so I'm happy with SOTA direction on this or do you prefer the grind model like in Perfect World? If so you might be disappointed.

- Richard Garriott guided the Ultima Series from its inception in 1980, through the "trilogy-of-trilogies" of solo player games and later, the highly successful Ultima Online. Under his leadership, RPG's evolved from simple dungeon crawls to immersive worlds where you could easily suspend your disbelief. You cared about the world and its people, and you cared about the actions and deeds you accomplished within that world. Since then, most every other RPG has focused more on level grinding than on “role playing”, which has been reduced to a few initial character choices.

* To me Richard and also Chris Roberts for that matter come from a old pedigree of developers that actually care about the games because they themselves are gamers. To many developers these days go into games to make money from the games and don't have this passion, which is why so many games seem like they are made from cookie cutters. I never played Ultima though know of RG and what he has done for the industry and how he was even Chris's boss for a time. I know from playing Wing Commander back in the day Chris created an immersive world I think just about every kid wanted to live in and I heard similar tales about Ultima. It's been a very long time since either of these guys have been behind the saddle, so we will have to wait and see if they are able to re-create that magic of old but from what I've seen so far I have no reason to believe they can't achieve their goals.

I have seen no reason to believe that there isn't still a focus on the SPO aspect of the game as why would they higher a best selling novelist Tracy Hickman and have someone working full time on NPC conversations like Lum as there is clearly going to be a deep story going on here and we already know about the virtues and the roles they play.
Outside of a friend list / guild list and PVP can you think of any multi-player components that have been made like items, scenes, combat abilities, music, spells, crafting, enchantments, questing, housing that has restricted your ability or lessened your experience to play single player game mode?

 

*shakes his head in disbelief - mouth agape

Sometimes you people scare me lol

 

Items: No. There are some items that only work multiplayer but none that restrict my experience.
Scenes: Player-run towns and player-owned towns. Shardfall scenes which are built around PVP. These WILL impact my experience.
Combat abilities: No
Music: The radio? but i guess that doesn't restrict my experience...even if the music in-game is lacking right now, that'll be fixed.
Crafting: Well no player economy. So I'm not sure how some crafting will be useful in singleplayer?
Enchantments: No
Questing: No
Housing: The vast, numerous amounts of empty lots

There's also monsters respawn and don't move (dead world) which is bad for single-player (well not respawning monsters if you enter/leave a map). But that's necessary for an MMO.

I think the real issue here is: single player economy, multiplayer scenes that won't translate to single-player, and single player living world.

 

How are monsters respawning and not moving necessary for an MMO? That can all be controlled by selective multi-player, choosing how many people can enter a scene. And, on the other hand, having new monsters wander in from outside the map, which isn't a problem for single-player either.

They haven't implemented NPC schedules yet, but will. So I wouldn't be surprised if they had more advanced monster UI in the game later on. Its not clear at this point.

 

Well I think selective multiplayer isn't really MMO but co-op play but whatever. The point is that right now, the adventure scenes are geared with "MMO" in mind, not with singleplayer.

And I think the point is that in single-player, you clear a map to get a feeling of accomplishment. Having new monsters wander in might (depending on execution) undermine that but at the moment, this doesn't happen. Monsters magically re-appear.

 

What is also frustrating is that with every hangout there are questions asked up front regarding single player features like monster respawns, sense of accomplishment (killing the dragon once and for all or clearing areas), grinding etc. but they are not answered by the devs. Not even during the single player hangout which focused on the story only.
So not getting answers to questions that are clearly of importance to a significant part of the community as well as for the importance of getting a true and great single player experience worries people.

 

Good point with housing we know that in SP Online mode we will see the player housing but I wonder how they will handle this in SP Offline. Will they introduce randomly generated housing with NPC's taking over ownership as I can't see them leaving them as empty lots as this would be to game breaking.
Also I would be interested to hear how they plan to treat POT's in SP Offline mode, I wonder if they will even make it in.

I haven't kept up with all the PVP changes but last I heard you could enter PVP area in SP Online/Offline mode and not have to worry about PVP with the only downside being that the resources you can harvest just becoming like any other zone. Do you know if this is still the case or has this changed?

@Lord_Darkmoon - Yes monsters respawn, yes you will feel a sense of accomplishment for killing a Dragon, Yes there will be some grinding but there is more of a focus on questing and exploration.

 

But how will monsters respawn? Will they respawn as long as I am in the scene? Will the magically reappear out of thin air? Can I clear a scene of all the bandits and thus get the sense of having freed the area of the bandits?

If I kill the dragon, will my sense of accomplishment be that he stays dead forever for me?
When I free a town of the undead menace will those be back and terrorize the citizens over and over again?
If I rescue the kidnapped princess will she get kidnapped again and again?
This can have a huge impact on the single player experience. If I cannot truly rescue the princess then we do it at all?

How much grinding will there be with RG saying during the Kickstarter campaign that the game "will focus more on player choices and discovery than on level grinding."?

There are so many questions left unanswered...

 

Well I just don't think the Devs have the answers. I bet they can barely think beyond the extreme amount of work they have to do at this moment and while they of course do want to
make all their backers happy, they just don't have all the answers at the moment. I too want things that have not materialized yet. I will wait for these things and of course like you
mention them often enought to keep them in mind if I feel they are perhaps forgotten, so I do understand wanting to hear an answer about something so important to you.
Fortunately finally Qball answered me. Although what I was wanting to know about was not a coplete system as single player offline would be just a better looking female avatar for us.

I just envision this as a huge undertaking and that perhaps how it will unfold is totally not known at this moment. So I do wish you good luck on this Darkmoon and all who are
wishing for this. I don't quite see it as a longevity type of thing since no other Single Player offline game I have played has had longevity for me. You play it meet your goals and get to
end game and move onto another game, but perhaps you have ideas for it to have longevity somehow. I loved Dragon Age and thanks if you mentioned it, just played it,
but when it was done I was done with it.

 

But how will monsters respawn? Will they respawn as long as I am in the scene? Will the magically reappear out of thin air? Can I clear a scene of all the bandits and thus get the sense of having freed the area of the bandits? Yes and no.

If I kill the dragon, will my sense of accomplishment be that he stays dead forever for me? Did you experience the quickening and absorb its soul? If not I would watch your back.



When I free a town of the undead menace will those be back and terrorize the citizens over and over again? Next time instead of asking them to leave just kill them

If I rescue the kidnapped princess will she get kidnapped again and again? Yes I will keep coming after her until she is mine.

This can have a huge impact on the single player experience. If I cannot truly rescue the princess then we do it at all? Agreed just give up I'll take good care of her.

How much grinding will there be with RG saying during the Kickstarter campaign that the game "will focus more on player choices and discovery than on level grinding."? Depends on how many tags you purchased from the game warden, I tend to hunt Deer myself.




There are so many questions left unanswered...

The way I see it they are still building the foundations to the game and while I could give you a proper answer on some of these questions the reality is the game is very bare bones with only a rudimentary game loop that is undergoing change. Once the beta opens up later this year I would expect you should have a clear answer on this.

 

I think it goes booth ways.
Content, if one looks at Elder Scrolls games they have content in spades, and THEN when you played it all out you start to add mods, more content created by people who often can tell great stories but do not have the ressources to create the world they are told in.

So why should not what works for single player work for multiplayer?

No mmo (contrary what some people want to make us believe) creates a cool story just by popping 1000 people into one virtual room to interact and then somethign magic happens and story happens.

It needs an fundament, an seed stories happen around, because stories need to be told with the means the game has, the cool guild event, the guild war even, does only mean story to the people who where there and witnessed it, the game itself can not tell the story, it is not content, it is like real life, without an witness making it into an story and telling it by means others can share in it did not take place.

And that is what many mmo do wrong and then they die.

Like Elder Scroll games who survive long because of mods we need mechanicsmens that allow individuals to create content out of stories, to tell them with the means like an single player game has, and so make it last a long time.

And we need the Devs to improve the mechanics of the game, from sinple graphics to mechanics to content too, the game itself dies as soon it is "done", as soon maintance stops.

And no player driven real time story creating will stop it because all that happens only for the people who witness it.

You need always impulse from the outside as much as you give impulse or things come to an grinding halt.

So the real challenge for SotA will be that the tools are there for people turning story and so on into content, make the impulse last, make that peacfull event or the bloody guildwar an lasting story, content, so that it becomes something that exists not only for the moment and can fuel more stories to happen.


Humans got history because of paintings on cavewalls, and later of written language, because they had means to preserve things that did happen, not because we find some tools or chipped stones, they tell us how things where done, and why out of an materialistic need (have food/shelter) but not why the individual did it this way and not that)

Now we have online worlds who are in my eyes an new way to tell stories, opreserve tham maybe and build on that, be it fantasies or real world things that happend.

My idea is that this will maybe one day grow into something future generations can use to travel back in time and experience to an much higher degree "how things where back then" than any book can, because the "messy details" can be preserved too, not like in an book where the authors ideas and personalitie filter what is told, because in an game things can be seen from many points of views.

So online games may become more than books even, but as it is all that depends on how much and long they are build on, they are done when people say they are done and stop to care, to turn what happend into content.

 

I am looking forward to the single play content as well and do appreciate your passion Darkmoon.

But for some I would hope that it is almost a gimme in single player mode. For example rescuing the princess only once. Unless it is a different scene completely.

Some current systems already seem to be capable of doing some such things. For example the random encounters already allow you to clear creatures and nodes one time only. Some quests can only be completed once. Ect..

The changing scenes can also be used in single player mode. For example if the battle is being fought at the bridge then that scene will be there. If the player has seen it to the end of the battle or the battle has not begun yet then they will get the clear scene.

I do agree that it would be nice to get some dev input on how this is going to work. Not only would this ease some worries of players but players would also be able to point out what is missing/expected and what could possibly be done better. If this does not happen then they are wasting the potential of having a player influenced single player mode.

 

I have no idea if that's the case. But if the resources turn normal in single-player offline, that limits my ability to get those rare resources doesn't it? We have no idea how housing will work in SP-Offline but with your idea: a balance would have to be struck because you still want lots available for SP-offline players but at the same time having those NPC houses.

They might still be working out the details but they should at least have a general idea of how they plan to make single-player offline work. Yes, they are busy, and they might not have all the answers but we're not asking at this point for a detailed plan.

 

@Heradite. I know and understand that. I gave that plea myself once. Yes to have the development team confirm single player is not forgotten and is still planned adn some details. I do think perhaps they might not know yet. So much has been created as we go
from feed back and trial and error, and can we not accept that they don't know all and there is not much to tell at this point, and that when the time comes it will also be created as we go. Oh well carry on sorry if I derail, I do understand though.

 

With this resources not really the resources will still be available just like any other area but if they want to introduce PVP areas they need to make an incentive for players to PVP so this makes sense.
One could argue that the amount of time spent having to deal with other PVP Players could limit the amount of time the player can actually farm in the area so it could work out that the collection rate is worse for people playing Mutliplayer in this zone if they are getting killed constantly.
I really don't see this limiting the SPO at all and if PVP didn't exist this would just be like any other area anyway.

Yes of course the lots would just be filled with housing that is controlled by NPC Players, however this wouldn't limit the person playing SP Offline one bit, I see no reason why the person playing can't simply purchase a house from any one of these NPC's just as I could purchase a lot from another player in the multi player side if I wanted to.

 

I would disagree that the devs don't know yet where the game is going. I'd go as far as to say that if they truly don't know and are making this up as we go, that we're all in a lot of trouble and playing the wrong game.

Someone earlier said that they are likely keeping the SP game more secretive because if they told the story or too much of it, it would be all over the web in a week and they want to keep it quiet... and I agree.

I'm sure the devs are making some changes as we go based on player feedback and such, but I'm pretty sure they have extensive plans, targets, and know quite precisely each step of the way and the direction they're headed. Making games like these are so detailed, and one change in a small system can effect many other systems on a grand scale... we may be on page 2 of 10, but I'm pretty sure the devs have the book almost fully written, with the exception of some small edits to make as they go.