Full loot PVP and stuff

I'd really hope you don't measure any quantifiable skill by the gaming equivalent of clickbait on an iPhone.

 

Many people have been asking for a order -vs- chaos or good -vs- evil element to the game. Wouldn't it be a better idea to scrap the entire PVP concept of today and turn those themes into factions. It would still fit the lore and RP. Then use that dynamic as incentive for open PVP warring zones? There are many better possibilities with that dynamic and it would make war combat a PVP -vs- PVP thing. Another thought, is the warring kingdoms. The faction/theology/kingdom themes have natural conflict elements where you don't have to bribe people to play and you can frame the zones so players don't think they are being forced to do something.

 

I completely agree. That would at least be an option as a whole, particularly for the "consensual" PvP side of things. Personally, when someone says "sandbox" and "open world" I expect UO, not WoW. A lot of people, especially here on SotA, would too, especially where PvP comes into play. Ultimately, if it comes down to "Us vs. Them", that's every other game out there. We have to remember that we got enough money, in theory, for Episode 1, but if we want to see Episode 2, we gotta' keep players here.

If that means thinking outside the box or going back to old school ideals of gaming and interaction, as they promised us from the beginning, then that means doing so fully, not half-assed. Old school gaming was very unforgiving and we were better, more thoughtful and highly interactive gamers for it.

 

If it wasn't for my guild, I would really feel alone in the game. I mean I have quite a few friends (thanks to these forums) , but that is rather unusual for me in most games. I just get this feeling like we are being tossed in this giant selfish social experiment. I have no reason to do anything in the game for a greater cause, honor or pride. It seems like it is all about what I possess. I really do not like that. I hope SOTA considers factions or something like that to bring people together for a cause greater than themselves.

 

You're not alone.

 

Maybe the OP is onto a core concept here, I hope so.
I'm sorry not to read through nearly 200 reply's, but this suggestion was mentioned over 300 days ago, in a few PvP threads.
Write something in stone to this effect and the SotA store may bode very well, I can only imagine.

 

Yes, but unfortunately... if you don't agree with a PvPer, you have no option but to Stone Punch them in the face, which then makes you one of them. (I must admit I laughed quite a bit when I read that)

Why should someone who has bought into the same game the PvP player did, not be able to enjoy 100% of the areas and resources that the PvP player can? Taking the VERY good argument of sales and undercutting prices... the PvP shardfall has higher drop rate and more rare resources. PvP shardfall now is allowing the PvP player to undercut the PvE player's market base by offering more resources at a cheaper price. Regardless of the combat (because as you very truthfully pointed out there is MORE than that to playing with other humans), the arena provides a boost to revenue that is restricted to anyone that doesn't want to be forced from their play style.

As for the other aspects, like best town or house, not everyone is a PoT owner nor will everyone be a home owner or a blacksmith. Those that are, have two options. You can compete with other players for those prestigious things, OR you can just enjoy your niche and not worry that you are the 18th best underwear enchanter out there, because gosh darn it you just enjoy enchanting undies. You will ALWAYS find people who are really big into competition of any sort (and I REALLY hope our economy goes that way as it will be the best way to keep it alive). You will ALWAYS find people who are NOT really big into competition of any sort and just like to putz around. Just because someone doesn't like to compete with people doesn't mean they aren't good gamers, nor does it mean that they are in anyway unworthy to play.

I am saddened that you fail to understand that not everyone has the same personality type. I am not surprised though by the argument that it is something other than playing against a human that causes the human to not enjoy the experience. I have yet to find a PvP supporter that didn't in some way or another belittle the experience of the player that doesn't enjoy it as something other than just the experience itself. Its your computer (doesn't bug me against computer players), its bad game design (doesn't bug me against computer players), its just an exploit that everyone uses (computer doesn't), you just lack the twitch reflexes (doesn't affect combat against the computer), etc.

I HATE playing othello against people, I enjoy it against computers. I genuinely can't explain why, but I just am wired that way. Its the same game. But I go stir crazy against people... I can play for hours against bots. I do not enjoy the experience of playing against people. The computers I find enjoyable. Its not the wait time because you can customize that with computers, its not the stupid moves they make, or the brilliant ones, as computers can mimic them. I understand that you may find that unfathomable, but it doesn't change the truth. I can even tell if I'm playing a human or computer on some of the browser based othello games I've played because of this in under 10 moves usually.

NONE of that has anything to do with the utter morons you find in the games. PvPers have just as many jerks as non-PvPers. That is an unfortunate fact of humanity. I agree fully with you that some RP people are gods beholden to themselves (I don't RP with them). But just because there are some bad apples doesn't mean RP isn't fun. Its the same thing with PvP. There are griefers, but for those of you who enjoy PvP they probably don't stop you. You may stop fighting them or leave the zone when they show up, but it doesn't stop you from PvP.

Unfortunately, the current thought seems to be ALL people MUST PvP in the combat aspect and those who don't like it will be lured or have their profits be undercut by better drops elsewhere. Port is not implementing a mandatory RP enforcement in 5% of the zones. They aren't forcing people to craft in 5% of the zones. They aren't even enforcing any other form of player based competition (besides the market which they've already acknowledged will be leaning towards the PvP zones for best drops of resources). The only play style that they are enforcing is PvP combat in certain areas. I understand that PvP is much bigger than combat, however, its the forced combat focus that is my concern with their design decisions. Add on top of that, people wanting even MORE in the full loot zones. How far does it have to lean in PvP combat player focus before it alienates the other side?

 

100% agree with you here. AA had AMAZING potential to be great. I REALLY wish we had functional mounts and gliders in this game (I'd ignore almost everything else if they gave us gliders).

 

I'm REALLY hoping they implement something like this with the PoTs or guilds. Based on the book, there really isn't ANY proper semblance of unity anywhere. Instead of us vs. them it would be us vs. the world. Alliances can be made or broken. Unfortunately, I don't get a feeling that will be in place lore wise (there will always be the behind the scenes order vs chaos because of the creators... but I doubt we'll see an official implementation). Even from a non-combat sense, there is already trade consortiums being created, so non-combat merchant wars would be amazing (could always hire mercenaries to raid trade routes or whatever). There is a great deal of potential... but I just don't know how it could adequately be coded.

 

Please always Keep Game Lore in Mind or believable Story created explanations to game mechanics.

The more RPG Lore is woven into a new Game Mechanic the less you will have discussions or sad RPG Players.

So for example try to explain why something can be full looted in a area and in some Areas not.

I would have a simple idea to make this far more Lore Driven:

Ad Protective Aura Stones of the Orcale ( look like the old guild Stones from ultima, but only with a glowing) to every "non lootable hex- These Aura influence our Brains and they destroy the urge to steal anything.
All Hexes that have Lootable Options will not have such a small Aura Stone in the hex.


All i am saying is there are so many Story ideas to give game mechanics a reason to become believable.

 

So if you try to loot in a "non lootable area" you get the game message : that a strange power calms you done and you feel no Need to take this item

That because of the Little oracles Stones in non lootable hexes.

 

Now, now, you gotta' learn how to think outside the box! If a man relies on his sword arm he can determine a duel or change the flow of a battle; but if he relies on his brains, he can transform the entirety of the geographical landscape with words and influence. What is a guild of PvPers, no matter their skill, when an entire realm crushes them in sheer weight of bodies because the game of politics bested their swordplay?

This assumes the PvPer is also a crafter, and therein lies the switch. If there's open loot, how can I carry a mountain of ore and my victims' belongings? When I was a macer on UO, I always laughed because I followed the mantra, "If you can't kill a macer, he wins." It seems obvious, but you have to think about it: if you don't kill the macer, he will drain all your stamina as maces kill stamina, slowing you down and making you unable to swing and maneuver on the field. If you don't maintain your stamina, you die; if you do by drinking refreshes, you'll eventually run out of pots. Armor breaks rapidly against maces, so eventually you'll be left with no armor, meaning each hit as the fight goes on becomes increasingly more powerful as you lose armor to save you. You can't poison with maces, sure, but that just means the 15-25 cure pots taking up space provide zero advantage in the fight, and would be better served as more heals or refreshes.

In the end, I'd win, and there'd be nothing of much meaning to loot as I wasted away or broke everything of any real value. Then, as a swordsman, I ended up killing mages quickly and having all their potions and reagents to loot. First world PK problems when you have to abandon the spoils of war behind because you killed your opponent too quickly and they didn't make you use up any resources to replace!

There's another point about crafters and resources in the PvP zones I'll return to momentarily.

And that's fine. But a gamer must accept that in a massively multiplayer online environment that is built from the ground up to encourage interaction, interconnectedness, immersion, and consequence that they will be uncomfortable with the inherent competition that comes with it. Even the most casual players will have elements of competition that will reveal themselves through play. They may not aim to compete with the best, sure, but they'll aim to compete with the ones they can quickly see are inferior fighters, duelists, merchants, politicians, and so on. The forums are a direct manifestation of that, and there's nothing to even do in the game yet regarding meaningful dominance.

The damn shame in all of this is there should have never been an SPO feature in the first place; this is an infected skin tag on the greater game left over from when they decided to go with a traditional MMO design instead of their mobile app. It brought in players that wanted nothing to do with other players, and that is simply not how an MMO works. I'm not even talking about from a mechanics perspective, but a longevity one: do you think WoW would still be around if it was a single player game?

If we took a poll, "How many people do you know that quit WoW annually?" I'd bet more people would know dozens than none. It's the community that brings people back and keeps them rooted in it. It's the investment and effort to create and defend and protect that keeps people stuck in a game. Why go elsewhere that will be, at best, on par with everything you can do now, with less content, less things you've acquired, less friends you've made, and so on? It's why WoW clones simply fail, not because they aren't good games (although I'd argue all themepark games are dogcrap), but because if they aren't different enough, why leave and start all over again by tossing aside 7+ years of hard work?

Otherwise, they should have kept it strictly SPO/FPO with zero MMO concepts. This way the only people you play with are like-minded friends. But if there's to be effectively one server with everyone supposedly coming together to interact and become immersed in this grand world together, then there will be competition, the game must support that competition, and those that do not appreciate the difference between winning and losing must accept those changes.

The longevity of the game depends on it.

This is where I bring back the crafter situation.

We all know this game was promised to be immersive, interconnected and so on (notice I keep using these words - they are verbatim from Garriott's various interviews since 2012). It was promised to be interactive and focus on the role-play elements, which is why we have things like POTs.

If a PvMer doesn't want to be killed in a Shardfall while they explore and gather resources, why don't they surrender?

"I yield!" cries the prospector, throwing down his mattock and holding his heads upon high. "Spare my life, please, I beg it of thee!"

"And what do I get out of it, then, mate?" asked the brigand, blade brandished at the thin hairs of the miner's throat.

Role-play. Interaction. Immersion.

That is why Shardfalls exist.


PS: Oh, and my answer?

"Me," hissed the mercenary with a sudden crack, the bandit's neck snapped from behind with impunity. "Amateur. You all right, friend?"

"Aye, you were worth every penny!"

 

Again, I don't disagree with a lot of the points you make. However, there is a significant difference between inherent competition in trying to buy an item, than there is in being ganked when zoning into a shardfall. And again, many of them WON'T choose to compete even against the inferior players. They are there to be, as you keep emphasizing, immersed in the world. They are there to interact with me and other people they meet. They are happy to be plugged into the interconnectedness of the marketplace or various PoTs. They can do ALL of these things without actively competing with anyone. Not all of life is a competition. It can be viewed that way, but it doesn't HAVE to be viewed that way. Yes you can say that the fact I got to the gas pump before the other driver means I won. But if neither person is trying to win and they are just trying to get gas... there is neither a sense of accomplishment nor a sense of defeat.

Again, the issue isn't in accepting things that don't affect the enjoyment of my friends in game that I'm concerned with. I'm concerned with the very direct things that affect their enjoyability. The longer they enjoy the game, the more they will invest (in both time and money), and hopefully the more other friends they will tell about the game. One of my favorite examples of this (as long as we are quoting Richard) is his story of The Fisherman from early UO. One of the things that made UO great was that it was another world where you could be anything. Yes it had great competition, but it also had simple enjoyment. A few nights ago I spent 4 hours sitting on a boulder watching the sun rise and moon rise in Owl's Head (I was grabbing screen shots for later... but that's beside the point). Eventually, one of my friends joined me and we just chatted for a bit. It was fun and relaxing. We ended the day by trying to yell, threaten, beg, and cajole Midge the cat to share the secrets of the lunar rift. There was no aspect of competition, but it is probably my second favorite experience since I picked up the game (the first being in the water and chatting with BurningToad and then kidnapping some people to tour undeveloped Novia).

I was interacting with people as they walked by, I felt connected to the world of the game, and I was immersed in my character. So again... COMPLETELY ignoring competition of all conceivable aspects allowed me to find something utterly fun and enjoyable for quite a few hours while I was relaxing after work. Does that mean I'm doing something wrong or I was competing and didn't realize it?

 

I am very pleased with this announcement.

 

Do not listen to the nailsayers!

thats the best news ive ever heard so far, i guess we got more people hiding in non-pvp areas now =P

GOOD JOB! ^^

 

I love this, because it makes the PvP scenes what they should be. If someone 'steals' my ore, I can kill them and get it back. And I do not have to risk my precious harvesting tools while killing them.

I am not happy about this, in my experience numbers (and skill) trumps gear. I think they willl end full of naked and low-gear bands rowing around and attacking anyone stupid enough to enter with good gear.

I would prefer high-risk duels (with full loot) over the whole scenes... I think that the risk-reward ratio will be really broken there.

Maybe if we are talking about full loot arenas with no resources in and no short cut on the map, it could work. That way it is quite optional and it can work for hardcore people.

 

Bring on full loot PvP, it's what the PvP community have been waiting for........This announcement is likely to create a greater interest for PvPers who have so far stayed away from backing the game.

Full loot PvP is the greatest announcement that has been made by Portalarium so far in 2015.

Haters are always going to hate this element, there are some who don't even want PvP in the game......but to be honest they arnt PvPers anyway. The only comment I could possibly make to them is....."Tram That Way ----->"

 

I remember the Parable of the Fisherman from a few years back. I suppose I should clarify my position a bit, as my experience is extremely assumptive in sandbox games and not at all inherently obvious.

First, though, let me say when I talk about competition, I don't mean every action or element of the game must be a competition. You can certainly find pleasure in the little things, surely. However, I would argue that fishing on the river, watching the sunrise and chilling with a friend on a boulder for a few hours will happen maybe a few more times before your mind starts wandering to how it can be better. That road eventually ends with conflict, not necessarily combat, but some kind of struggle. It could be an "Old Man and the Sea" circumstance or perhaps a stone skipping contest on the lake with your friend. Competition comes into play, eventually. If there was an actual interaction with Midge, where you were technically talking and trying to get responses out of the NPC (much like we did with wisps back on UO), I'd even argue you were competing with your friend to try and get Midge to respond to your inputs with the answer first. It doesn't need to be malicious or overly aggressive (or even overtly conscious), but an obstacle to overcome arises. We need that, otherwise we grow bored in ennui.

(Furthermore I'd argue that an inability to feel that need is actually an extremely worrisome trait, either because of a lack of mental or social growth or even severe, life-threatening depression or mental illness).

Secondly, when talking about competition, the minutia and inconsequential events in the game can be enjoyed easily without human interaction. As I referenced above, I distinctly remember a time I was trying to talk to a wisp in the highlands north of Delucia. I honestly thought I was getting it to respond and interact with me. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but I ran that information by other players who tried similarly. There was a competition to get a reaction out of the wisp, see if one of us could make it budge further (we eventually got bored and killed it for lulz). Either way, just because it can technically be described as competition it doesn't need to be with anyone but yourself.

Eventually, though, I'd argue that you hit a plateau in what challenges you. People who enjoy stimulation don't read books that go, "There was a brave young boy who set out on a quest. Nothing really bad happened and he discovered the magic relic to save his land with no trouble at all. The end." It's conflict and the ability to overcome challenge that draws us to it. You mentioned your friend who is in it for the lore, who might not even bother PvEing because she just cares about the story. Nothing wrong with that, but she isn't really playing the game at that point, is she? She's more just reading books and stories and logging in to wander the land she's reading about. But that's not what gaming is about, fundamentally; gaming requires some element of interaction, something that influences the next step in the adventure. Otherwise it's just a movie, albeit a potentially immersive one.

Now let's consider she does interact with people, she gets involved with storylines and plots and the communities in game. As a guild master of, jeez, I don't even remember anymore... 15ish years, off and on, I was grossly involved with politics. The open world and sandbox nature of UO drew me in and made it difficult to maintain interest in other games. I liked the fluid interactions, the genuine reactions of people when they were directly faced with losing their stuff and had to talk their way out of it, barter, fight back, threaten, whatever. I enjoyed the tit-for-tat exchanges when employing guilds into alliances, the intrigue, the spygames.

One mantra I held true was that, "Inaction is still an action. Not choosing is still a choice." What I mean by that is, in an open world game of other players who - like you and your friends - have their own ways of interpreting and playing the game, perspectives and expectations differ. Conflicts come out of that. I remember countless guilds and players throughout the years who decided they'd play it "safe" and stay out of drama, out of guild wars and the like. Eventually, though, something happens - it always does.

1. A friend of a friend is killed by Faction B. The guild sides with Faction A or lose those members to Faction A or altogether.

2. Both sides feel shunned and cut off resources to help the guild because they won't lift a finger to help either faction. The guild loses both allies.

3. The guild tries to do its own thing and finds itself working against its allies by siding with another group. They're now at odds with both factions.

The various scenarios can be listed on and on and on, I assure you; I've seen damn near every possible outcome. Wars take their toll on the less motivated. Drama erupts and chases off players. Schisms divide between leaders in the community. It's a mess, it really is.

Throughout all of it, though, is competition, and that's why I brought it up. Your friend, if she so much as utters a word and interacts with someone, could find herself in a position where she has to choose. That could lead to her siding against another faction in war or being friends with this person over that. The more she gets involved the more weight her actions have as do the actions of others on her. But unless she isn't participating at all, she'll eventually come into a situation of competition and struggle. It's both the draw and the curse of online socializing, particularly in MMOs.

And she doesn't need to be competing to be better than the person in some measurable skill, only that she positions herself to be in a better stance to handle the circumstances. She doesn't want to make adversaries out of both parties, now does she? I understand this interpretation of classic or traditional PvP can be very deep and windy, but that's the entire point of it, honestly, to get people into these circumstances. For these stories to grow and expand and evolve there has to be a flashpoint. It doesn't have to be something tremendous or a war, but even the slightest slight can lead to years-long feuds. I would know, I've started plenty of them.

In closing this bastion of text, I would say that ultimately, while your friend should be able to enjoy herself, it isn't health from a business standpoint nor from a gamer's standpoint to design a sandbox such as this with her "playstyle", so to speak, in mind. Her genre would be more akin to Myst and something single player, I'd argue, which would be most enjoyable for her while not sidetracking the development to a solo playstyle (enter FPO/SPO rants).

 

No, the best announcement was the single player offline with companions

As long as nobody is forced into PvP and as long as the quests and story as well as the economy are not compromised by PvP, sure let there be full loot scenes.

 

Going with the above explanation of competition, then I can see where the misunderstanding between our thoughts is centered.

I view competition as much more of a dynamic and less subtle aspect. And yes, the FPO/SPO aspect is one of the selling points for her, but with big emphasis on the online side. She enjoys the social interaction and the ability to be in game with friends and to meet new people. None of which an offline single player game like Myst would provide. Going with the very broad view of competition you listed above, she would probably be highly involved in many aspects of that (even though she's one of those horrid peacemaker people that tries to please everyone). The ability to interact with people while exploring the world and lore, or just decorating her house to host parties, or running some crafting business, etc., is what draws her in far more than any combat mechanic ever will. So making combat tedious for her, or forcing her to lose the interaction with people defeats any fun she would get out of it.

Still wouldn't agree that it isn't healthy for a business to include her play style. There are a few very successful titles that have done well with her play style, and all income is good income until we get to a point where we have more money than we know what to do with. My point has always been finding a balance between all play styles that doesn't alienate anyone. Forcing people into her path will lose people as quickly as forcing her into someone else's path will lose her. My desire (in an ideal game world) would be to allow those who enjoy every play style to find a good fit here, so that PvP is meaningful, fun, engaging, and draws in more PvP players without losing those who aren't interested in the same play style. It seems that people are very big in ignoring or dismissing the concerns of the other camp (be it pro-PvP comments like, "tram is that way" or anti-PvP comments about developers giving all the best stuff only to the PvP people). I think Tahru said it best way possible with making it feel like the Devs are pitting hungry PvP vs reluctant PvE rather than excited PvP vs excited PvP. Griefers aside, I'm sure most PvP players would enjoy good and fun PvP that is enjoyed by all that participate over ganking those that are hating life because of being forced to do something.

We both agree that the deeper underlying involvement of an online game is what draw people from both camps. It just shouldn't be sacrificing one camp to appease the other. I'd love it if there were more PvP players who advocated for both sides and more PvE players who did the same. There is a general assumption that's been tossed out a few times about about how PvE is already being taken care of and so their concerns, like some of the most interesting areas being off limits to them, are then dismissed. This seems to me the exact thing that PvP have been complaining about, i.e. PvP concerns like full loot being ignored or dismissed. There are always going to be naysayers in both sides... but the game is being designed for both sides to enjoy, so there should be some balance put into place to ensure both sides enjoy it.