Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

You've never done any kind of sport, have you? If you have to "remember" how to do a parry, or shoot a free throw, or catch a pass, then you didn't practice enough, aka, you're a level 1 pleb. Parries come naturally, and are super easy. What isn't easy is when the other person forces you into a situation that you cannot parry; that's reality, and this system doesn't begin to emulate it at all.

 

Dewd, just some commentary meant to be friendly reflection: To a new guy, you come across as a typical Internet troll (I'm trying to be friendly, really). The longer I've been here and read more of your posts, especially the older ones, I see that you have the ability to not troll (otherwise, I wouldn't address you directly and just essentially ignore you). I understand being opinionated and passionate about your positions, but it feels like you are trying to PK in the forums sometimes.

Just because you describe your own playstyle in-part as "griefing (guild sabotage, house looting, extortion, etc.), PvPing, PKing" (pasted from one of your other thread replies) doesn't mean you have mimic that and be abrasive on the forums nor (while I'm at it) attack Portalarium with pot shots - like making frequent snide remarks about the 2D wall boundaries which we all know are temporary placeholders.

We can't make you be constructive - I've seen a few attempts just in the last few days, but already I'm predisposed to discount everything you say simply because of the way you say stuff.

Now, all of that being said, I do agree with your last point above. SotA's combat system doesn't begin to emulate reality with regard to parries and an opponent forcefully removing the ability to parry. But, then again, no game perfectly simulates real combat, so if Portalarium chooses to focus more heavily on other aspects of combat (and non-combat) in SotA, that's ok. Plus, since it is still pre-alpha, they may still have some plans we don't know about regarding advanced combat scenarios.

 

There are many ways to implement a feature... meaning a feature is not defined by its implementation. While a feature can remain clunky, it can also be altered while still keeping its basic functions... even after a game is released to the public. These cases are the fault of the developer engineering the software rather than the idea(s) themselves.

A simple example of a clear distinction between execution and feature would be monster re-spawns in video games. The feature is that it allows you not run out of monsters to kill, but how well its executed will determine if you'll be overwhelmed (because they re-spawn too fast) or end up being bored waiting (because someone else killed them before you did)... or if the game will stutter because it's having trouble loading the new monsters in memory... or if it's an exact replica of the monster with the exact same loot.

Shroud of the Avatar's combat is currently clunky because the AI is pathetically unresponsive, the glyph icons are unrecognizable beyond their respective skill trees, most of the skills aren't balanced and/or completed, engaging in combat requires that you constantly look at three areas on the screen (bottom, center and top-left corner) to understand what's going on (primarily because the visuals don't properly communicate the actions and effects) and the fact that the servers most likely aren't optimized or have the capacity for low latency. All of these are to be expected in an pre-alpha and even if it wasn't that doesn't make the glyph system bad, it just means it requires fine-tuning.

Resolving any (or all) of these issues will make it less clunky and only through testing will the developers find the right way to execute the idea.

 

How am I a troll? The guy cited "real combat" as a reason the card system applies to combat and not to crafting. I disputed that based on, y'know, real combat.

They shouldn't be placeholders, there's precedence not to have them with the plains instances. Additionally, abrasive isn't insulting; if you or anyone else feels insulted, apologies, but put your big boy pants on. While I've only spent $45 on this (and I feel like I overspent, based on what I'm seeing), there are people who are echoing my sentiments that have paid more than you and I combined make in a month. This is business, Hraw. We have invested money in a project that promised certain features, and other features are ruining the things we backed. We're speaking out because we want to see this work, but the blinders on both the community and the devs disturbs many of us.

They don't like my commentary, they can give me my money back and I'll be on my way. Otherwise, I can and will continue to voice my opinion, and if someone makes a ridiculous comment, I'll call them out on it. If that's not good enough, throw me on ignore.

The feeling is mutual. You continually say that the locked hotbar is a viable option, in multiple threads, despite numerous people showing you how (very nicely, I might add) it isn't a viable option. Yet, you continue to keep holding onto it as an option, talking about "risk vs. reward" when it isn't applicable to the comparison of the two systems. This isn't one person's opinion, and when it has been presented to you, it has been direct but polite. Don't play white knight, especially about a system (locked hotbar, specifically) that is continuously criticized by people both old and new, proponents of the system and detractors alike. Not to mention the proponents of the system are just as toxic as the detractors. If you want it to stop, get the devs to address this.

Other games simulate combat with action vs. reaction. That, at its core, is combat. It's the same for any sport or interaction, for that matter. The card system is just out-DPSing your opponent. Tactical gameplay is not a practical element in this system. I've already explained this in multiple ways, and interestingly enough, my "constructive" posts get a bunch of likes (for whatever they're worth), and then that's it; the proponents of this system latch onto lines from other posts and create straw men arguments, deflecting towards weak statistics or talk about "vision" (whatever the hell that is, at this point) or faith, instead of addressing the fact that it is an issue rather than the plethora of causes behind it. This is business.

You can wave the banner of pre-alpha (which, at this point, is just a marketing term, let's get real folks) to excuse the system, but the core mechanics, how it will play, are in. This is the system you will be playing in 2016. And because of how a deck system works by default - that is, monitoring your hand of cards - you cannot have deep AI combat that requires constant attention on the action. You're consistently looking at your hand, whether it's half the time or more depending on how good you are it. So more engaging AI isn't an option without making combat too hard for most of the people here (the vast majority of this community aren't exactly twitch players, by their own admission, so making them balance cards and dodging insta-kill nukes from mobs when they can't remember cooldowns is asking a lot).

If there's something you don't like about it, speak now or forever hold your peace. There will be a point of no return; they have an entire game to build up and flesh out and then balance on top of. Assuming the game isn't slated for November '15 (most assume it'll be after Q1 or Q2 of '16 for good reason), that doesn't mean they can spend six months fleshing out all the skills, fixing the card system UI (again, whatever that's supposed to mean), balancing that UI with the locked deck UI (to keep both "meaningful") and then balance all of that with melee vs. ranged, only to then balance actual skills in beta. They have a whole game they still need to complete, and being that most of the quests and instances involve combat, they need to be fixing it now rather than working on street names and house plots.

 

I tried to be friendly about it - sorry for striking that nerve, I apologize

 

Unfortunately this thread isn't going to settle anything. Nobody even knows if the devs are even considering altering the current UI. It doesn't really matter how many times we go around & around this subject, it's just the same people saying the same things all over again.

No offense to anyone but beating up on each other here accomplishes nothing. If you want something definitive then go ask the Devs in the Dev+ forum what their plans now are after the nth thread on this topic.

 

Don't worry about it Hraw, your post was justified. Zeke said he appreciates the chaotic aspect of deck combat, and would like to see crafting take a similar approach. It's a perfectly good opinion, and there was no cause to claim he doesn't play sports or doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's his opinion, and one that I happen to agree with. Maybe this combat system doesn't simulate the action / reaction twitch aspects of real combat. Instead it's focusing on the more chaotic aspects of fighting for your life. The feeling of in the moment, imminent danger with every fight. It's fun, and that's an achievement worth celebrating. Personally, I'd like to see more turn-based 'elements' included, - anything that can give me a fighting chance while I'm living in lag-nation, so far away from the server.

This is a business, and the people designing this game know the game business better than most. That's why we hear people say, 'have faith, believe in the vision'.
In the end, the money they received is for them to do what they feel is best. They're the experts, not us.

The Kickstarter hardly had anything to say about combat. It obviously is not a huge focus in the game. With 8 bullet points, the only one saying anything about combat is here:

• Players can specialize in a wide range of combat and non-combat skills, provided by a robust, classless skill system, and full-featured crafting and housing mechanics. Play the way you want to play, molding your character into the hero, anti-hero, or artisan you want to be!

It also mentions that PVP will be 'meaningful'. That's about it. Using a deck/glyph system doesn't prevent us from having meaningful PvP combat or from specializing in a wide range of combat skills.


Stating, "I don't like the combat this release, and this is why.." is useful feedback. Stating over and over again that "this combat system is doomed and if it isn't changed now the game will fail," is not useful feedback.

 

I have pledged more than i have spended last 5years for games.I do like the game,i do love the community.But im not happy with the skill and the combat system.Its a good thing that i can get refund!Thanks Asgard.

The best MMO i have played was UO,that was 16 years ago ..... Please make the game that will change my personal MMO favorite.

 

@Zeke: My idea of "Card Crafting" (randomly appearing crafting tools and items while crafting) was, of course, sarcasm. To me, it makes as much sense as card combat - none.

I sincerely applaud the devs for wanting to come up with an original combat system that prevents cheating through macros. However, preventing cheating at the cost of an enjoyable experience should not be the central focus of a game mechanic.

I'm happy for the players who are liking it. Sadly, there are many, many backers who find it to be a game breaker. Like the rest of you, I'm passionate about this game and want to see it succeed. I fear that card combat may be the cause of it's demise one day. I don't want to see this game, a child we are all helping raise, go out into the world of final release and fall on it's face.

 

already dealt with. Also who's to say the people voting are the majority of the "relevant population"? If you poll everybody who pledged, you will be polling some people mulitiple times due to buying mulitiple pledges, also not everybody has tested the game, also many who've tested it might not know anything about what we are polling for. So do we want solid feedback, or seemingly sound mathmatics that invalidates people's concerns here? lol

So the rule of thumb 30 or more people is really no less likely than any other poll.

Also consider that I already stated that we don't know if people are logging in mulitple times on different accounts to skew the results.

Even with that I think these polls are reasonable indicators of current opinions. It seems it just comes down to "what you want to believe is true".

Truth is there are a whole lot of people not happy with the system. Poll or no poll.

We can use the poll to say anything we want. LOL that's how most people use statistics for popular opinion polls anyway. Believe what you want and be happy.

 

I am not interested in AI. To me that is a separate issue and totally unrelated to the card system.

The combat system has inherent flaws. The stacking and combining of glyphs clearly causes us to focus on the deck and is an added layer of micromanagement of the combat bar that personally annoys me. Rather than facilitate combat it causes me to constantly be watching all these glyphs and make sure I stack them and manage them properly, and also to watch to see when they are going to fade away. This isn't just annoying it totally ruins the game for me.

The R8 combat system simply facilitated combat. It gave us our skills. Sure it was random, sure the skills didn't popup in the same place, but it was not stressful and it required no micromanagement whatsoever. There was no way to manage it. The deck was random but predictable.

***********************

If they stick with the deck system I would much rather they give us the combo glyphs, and just completely remove stacking and combining. Give us the simple and straight forward R8 deck system. Problem solved for me.



EDIT: Anybody remember how fun it was in R8?

I remember sneaking around (not having to look at the combat bar because all I could do is click off skills i didn't need because I couldn't manipulate it anymore than that). Then when I found somebody I would be able to attack them and if three people can running at me I could run away, and I was able to turn around and run backwards not losing more than one step and could still defend myself or possibly fire an attack or root somebody.

Today it is impossible to do this, and not just because running causes spells to fizzle. It is because we have to micromanage our decks. It feels like a heavy burden compared to how it felt back in R8.

The deck system went from Hero to Zero for me.

 

I'm not worried about it Dragon, friendliness doesn't work with some people. I figured he must not know how he was coming across to new people in the forum ... oh well, I tried. I'm sure I'll be one of his targets to PK and corpse jump over and over and over when I start PVPing, I'm certain to be a very easy kill for him - should be fun, maybe that'll teach me!

And yes the locked bar is viable in PVE - the more someone says it isn't, the sillier that person looks (especially when accompanied with the childish ultimatum that the devs must remove the random glyph option or "lose a customer").

In PVP, maybe locked/unlocked still needs to be balanced, I don't know - haven't tried PVP yet in SotA.

 

"Friendliness"? You came out saying, "I'm just trying to be friendly here, but you're a troll and everything you say comes across as toxic." That's like Ricky Bobby saying "with all due respect". If you were sincere, you'd just have PM'd me, but instead you derailed the thread by making it about me. The passive aggression is also unbecoming; come out and at least engage me on it than just refer to me. Hypocrisy isn't a shade anyone wears well.

But then again, you're new. You've got two weeks under your belt and you're wide-eyed. That's cool, I liked the deck system at once, too. About 80-100 hours later, however, I didn't.

 

The problem though with giving you an already-made-glyph to combo (instead of you manually having to put it together) is that its a guarantee. I would think that the reason they give you all the perks in the random deck because it's not a guarantee. It requires effort on your part to make it work to it's fullest potential. Active participation, that one would hope cannot be macroed. ( No idea if it can be though I'm sure they'll come up with something)

Yes, it would be less micro-managing, but then it would give you even more of an advantage over a locked deck. If you don't want to micromanage, and just wanted to pop off skills as they pop up, you still can. No idea what R8 was like, but from what you're describing above, you can still do that. It's just that it's evolved so that those who want to do/push for a little more, now can put in the extra effort to get an additional perk to the random deck. Just because it's there and available, doesn't mean you have to do it. Sometimes, I feel like "button mashing" and I do. It'll still work (I guess at this being the R8 way?). Just with the combos now (R16), will make it work faster.

 

I still find it interesting that the No's are still ahead, taken from a population of forum goers.

 

It might have something to do with how the OP question is phrased?

Like, I voted yes, because I think it might be better than bread - I eat rice. And it definitely does not suck more than my vacuum. If it did, I wouldn't have to be using the broom and dustpan so often. *pondering on a Dyson*

 

I am making no effort to discredit his experience or trivialize anyone who does not prefer the system.

Just pointing out how silly and pointless the suggestion to make crafting card based was. Most likely his point was in jest to begin with but...

Thanks for the input tho Isaiah.

 

Yes!!! those Dyson no loss of suction jobs are the bomb!! No way combat sucks more than that.

 

My suggestion was intentionally silly. Just as silly as I find card combat.

And I didn't take anything you said personally, Zeke. We're good.

 

You are correct, my dad made it to one of the last rooms in the compendium of pain using a static bar solo.. and most people can't make it that far solo with a dynamic.

However, the dynamic and static decks are intentionally currently favoring dynamic. It will be balanced later, but the Dev's want people to play with the dynamic.

I really don't understand why people complain about the dynamic, use the static then. If the static isn't working for you, then explain what needs fixed on that. (Obviously for now Balance, but since you can be successful with a static, as my dad has demonstrated, what are the other issues with it?)