Final Wipe and Lot Selection

A lot of SRPGs when dealing with wide open spaces will fill it with random non-unique NPCs that you can't talk to or who say the same thing. It's nice that SOTA wants to make each NPC it's own unique person but it does create a lot of problems in a 3D world....in that so far, the world looks pretty empty and undeveloped-not just because of player housing but simply because if you remove the players (like single-player offline will do) there will likely be a population of what 250 people (NPCs) in Novia? Maybe there's more than that but the point is it doesn't feel like an actual world.

 

I wish there were more posters like you. There aren't enough people on the "I like this game!" team who are willing to sympathise with the position of those who aren't happy. Thank you.

You may be right; I'm still not sure they ever intended to have an MMO focus, however.

SotA was promoted right at the first for being a Multiplayer game with a strong Single Player core, not an MMO. It even says so in the game's Kickstarter FAQ: "Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game."

He elaborated on this elsewhere in interviews, as with Rock Paper Shotgun:

I think many SP people, including myself, were therefore expecting something a lot smaller and more personal. Something you could play as a kind of campaign with a group of your friends, but nothing so big that you'd expect the game to resemble a traditional MMO. I think that would have been far more doable with the Kickstarter money Portalarium initially requested, and I'm not sure why they changed course.

Everyone seems to have a different idea of what Portlarium's vision was, back in 2013. Even @RichardGarriott

 

Nothing I don't agree with here.

 

I'd have to admit that this is exactly what my initial impression was early on. I'm happy with the mp but I won't lie and say this isn't what I had initially expected. I guess we'll see how it goes after release 28 and the sp goes into full production. I'm sorta expecting it to play like ESO's story but without the cutscenes and players around if that makes any sense.

 

Why would they cut the cutscenes?

Wait SOTA has cutscenes?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

They didn't and no.

At one time they mentioned scenes that the player would have to enter alone....I haven't personally seen any of those so far though.

 

There wasn't really feature creep... In the KS they didn't even have a solid design mapped out. Again this is fine example of Chris Roberts and Richards different design philosophies from back in the origin days. While Chris would walk in the room to make a pitch for a new game with the complete design more or less nutted out and picture in his mind of how every feature would work... Richard would just pitch and idea and present a rough overview (in this case the KS prototype) to demonstrate the idea and not bother to nut out the fine details unless the game actually got the go ahead. The latter is definitely more time efficient but I think it's clear at this point which strategy works better at getting crowd funding backers to invest.

In SotA's case they has to not only nut out the details after the KS, they also had to work out how to deliver with a fraction of the budget they'd planned for (They said at the time they were asking for 20 million to make the game they wanted to make). So the actual feature list was drastically cut down and they had to priorities what would make the game work rather then just whatever they wanted to do. There were other problems too but it mostly boils down to the fact they haven't attempted something quite like this before (crowd funding, making a game on this scale without a publishers support, a huge thing when you consider publishers usually handle community management, sales, advertising etc.) so it's been a learning experience for them.

What bothers a lot of people is not so much how the feature list developed, but rather how it was prioritised. Other then the stretch goals there are no features in the KS pitch that you can say they have or haven't delivered. It was just an idea. Of course that's even more frustrating because when it's a specific feature there's justifications like we couldn't afford it, it was too difficult technically, upon implementation it clashed with the core design etc. but when it comes to ideas there's countless ways to achieve your goals. So when we say this isn't what was pitched to us... The only explanation is they lost sight of what the proposed goal was.

The idea in the pitch that bothers me most id quote "It's time for me to return to my fantasy role playing game roots (after discussing ultima been the longest running rpg series of all time) and redefine what a fantasy role playing game can be." and "A compilation of what made the avatars adventures so compelling for the last few decades." I can't say I feel the team has done this. I'll explain more but in the rest of the KS pitch Richard goes on to list faults in other MMORPG's he hopes to correct:

"All you need to do is talk to all the NPC's and click on all the options" I wouldn't say having to guess what the key word that is needed to complete the quest after doing so counts as overcoming this.

He then goes to talk about how players all have the same experience in current RPG's and how he plans to create unique experience for each player play style. I know ethical parables are a component of this, but given most RPG's have multiple quest outcomes these days I thinks it's going to take more then 2 or 3 options in a quest to push the current boundaries on this (remember them describing the fortress with multiple routes to take over, that would be a start).

"We will be providing the player a large interactive world": I hate to say this but the world isn't even as interactive as Ultima 7. You'll notice I haven't mentioned the story at all at this point as that's a separate issue to the rich virtual world. People are saying they've created a great online sandbox, but it's not a sandbox that stands up to any other game currently in the genre (bar player housing, but UO is still ahead there in terms of customisation, along with things like Minecraft, terreria/starbound and even singleplayer games like skyrim/fallout4 which is sad because even fallout 4 is critisiced for it's customisation system being to underdeveloped) but even their own games.

NPC scheduling is the norm now but 95% of our NPC's just wander in a circle or stand around like statues. There are less environmental interactions then either UO or Ultima 7 and I'm just talking about the static furniture so far. Inventory items... Well item dropping anywhere might be coming for singleplayer offline. But where the interactive world we were told we could share, right along side Lord British and our friends?

Then there's the whole: "In most RPG's monsters just mill about in their homes waiting for players to come along and murder them even though they did nothing to provoke it." before Rune74 mentions roaming encounters here and someone else points out town sieges are coming post launch... Wasn't this meant to be resolved by all creatures having a reason/purpose for being where they are? You can see examples in the game where an effort has been made to do that, but lets face it, most scenes they are just plonked down so the scene isn't empty...

One criticism Richard has been levying for years against MMO's is: "Once you highlight an opponent, you know that they're going to sit there in a turn-based way attacking you. You could put a black cloth over the top two-thirds of the screen, and watch only your text window and your shortcut bar - and play the rest of the game until the combat is done." the irony being with SotA's combat this is even more the case as you not only have to watch for cooldowns to complete on your shortcut bar, you also have to watch for matching glyph combos to come up to combine. At no point is your focus on the action.

He also mentions the treatise for what it and ultimate RPG
Here's a great ironic quote presented without further comment: "Since I am no longer at the helm of UO, let’s look at where it has gone in my absence. Elves and ninjas have been added into the game, things I specifically had banned. This is only a small example of why and how Ultima has drifted away from Richard Garriott"

Also fun "Most MMOs, like most solo player games, are not Ultimate RPGs, they have devolved into level grinds in beautiful but generic fantasy or sci-fi settings."

And to finally shut up what was pitched in the KS as far as singular story vs mmo argument we keep returning too: "Many players lament the story telling setback of the MMO era, where they are no longer the singular hero on the singular journey to ultimate personal success for themselves and the whole world. Yet I remain convinced, the Ultimate RPG can be made in the MMO medium." So no more of that crap alright?

But this is the one that breaks my heart: "Richard Garriott is an essential ingredient in the Ultimate Ultima!"
Because so often I don't feel Richard's hand in things. Now I know he leans on the game design by democracy side of things and is easily swayed on which direction to go by his peers... But the direction has changed so much... And yeah this quote is also there: "The new world will start smaller, thinner and lighter. It will have fewer features than some or most MMOs. Critical elements of the story I have just told may be missing upon launch. But fear not, this is where we are headed."
Which is why I'm still invested. I never expected Shroud of the Avatar 1 to live up to my expectations of an Ultimate RPG as envisioned by @RichardGarriott. Like I said at the start, they were working massively under budget and still finding their feet in a new development environment. But my hope was it would do well, well enough for Portalarium to keep working on it, for it to expand and grow. Maybe sooner or later they'd get there. I just have too concerns... Is that the direction we are still going? The devs will say yes but actions speak louder then words. They might think that's the direction they are heading but they are focused an awful lot on the now (as they need to be) and I worry they might be unwittingly closing some doors that later can't be opened.

The other concern ties into the whole final wipe thing. As I said my hope is Portalarium will thrive and go forward to create bigger better games. But I think the criticism they are due to receive over preforming their final wipe before they've got a polished game that ticks all the boxes for the idea's they presented in the KS... I know reviewers are going to rip into them. Lets face it controversy sells and they've already demonstrated they have no compunctions about not pulling their punches or flat out misrepresenting things: http://www.pcgamer.com/richard-garriott-game-designers-suck/
Why on Earth would you willingly give them more ammo to do so? It's well established a metacritic score can be used to accurately predict your games life time sales... I don't want SotA to fail to preform well because they lift the curtain too early. They will as well. Ignoring how it looks. Saying final wipe is not the launch of your online game is a strategy that simply will not work no matter how you word it. :-/

Regardless of where we are now... How will we get were we want to go if we impatiently chop our legs off because they are tired?

 

The Epitaph in Desolis.
Part of the main LOVE story line out of Ardoris will take you to a scene like that.
There are others.

 

Very, very well said. Its almost like you're sitting in my frontal lobe, having a beer.

 

That wasn't creepy at all.

I haven't experienced them personally so can't comment.

 

Actually, the minifridge up here is stocked with a particularly smooth apple cider. Cheers!

 

https://twitter.com/RichardGarriott/with_replies

Check out my (@endirasae) conversation with @RichardGarriott on the Final Wipe thing if you're of a mind. I asked him some questions about the Final Wipe decision and he was nice enough to reply on Twitter.

It seems to come down to RG believing wipes are no longer necessary, or at least less necessary than getting more people to play SotA and "deep test" it. He is apparently concerned that the wipes only result in people logging in for very shallow testing purposes, and seems to think this will solve it.

Considering the number of people who are proposing to log in, claim land and then leave until the game is Hard Launched, I have my doubts. But you can read his comments there.

Thanks again, @RichardGarriott. I don't agree with the reasoning, but I appreciate the time taken to reply.

 

It is nice he replied to you, but Twitter is not here. A lot deeper conversations happening here.

 

Well yeah, this problem was seen since beta testing has been happening.
The solution (since at least EQ1 Beta if not earlier) is to put an NPC in the world that testers interact with, that sets their XP to the level the devs want tested that testing cycle.
Voila. Problem solved. Over 15 years ago. The Portalarium developers can't be ignorant of this solution, so.. personally I'm not convinced this is any justification at all for the move to "final wipe".
Why?
Because if that was the problem they needed to solve, they could put such an NPC into the first scene in SotA, and then arbitrary "deep" testing is possible. Wipes then become completely painless, from a "grinding" perspective.

 

Just my response to the most recent Mega-update. Following is just what I think should be a better alternative, more fun, more desirable.

except the way this has been implemented kind of makes a mockery of realistic world layout - and to boot, none of the dungeons are anything resembling large 'world crossing epicness' type dungeons. That would be more acceptable and true to world design. But all this really means is the existing content would become more restricted to 'connectedness' and the same with the towns and POI and etc on the Overworld. Town districs would be fantastic..

I would remove the fixed and focus on delivering a more solid innovative combat system designed around dynamic options - like bringing back 'deck-size' configuration.

I would love to see any combat school available as a starting configuration through character creation. Hopefully for Ep 2 we then get much more improved character creation.

Make this even more interesting by adding more cool events to this system

I hope this will be attractive for players to 'play' with. Ideas for purpose of these for things like 'staging areas' for grouped players - eg get extra benefit and then patrol within the area on the Overworld? Players claim upgradable new lot types and stay there to defend them while area is flagged active?

Future Wishlist stuff... For EP 2.

Redesign players role on the overworld (for online mode only). For example options to better hide your self and when grouped, flag your group for group vs group encounters (such as protecting your land from other baddies)

Revamp combat mechanic even more

Make some larger dungeons

Make the Shardfall and PvP Arena's more purposful..

Add far better 'important NPC' dialogs so that Chat is not overused and add portraits for them (this is a big thing for offline mode IMO)

Make Chat Journal Party interface way better.

Other than that that is a great plan so far!

 

I was a Citizen level Kickstarter backer. I started PC gaming because of a little RPG called Exodus: Ultima III. I think I played every Origin game after, and Ultima has been my favorite series to this day.

SotA to me, is exactly what was portrayed and discussed all throughout the Kickstarter. You can play it by yourself and when you finish the storyline quit if you want. You never have to step a foot in the multiplayer world. Or, play with friends and live Ultima with the most amazing community in gaming right now.

I'm good with the timeline published. I think SotA as a social game will be a work in progress for awhile. But I'm anxious to play the RPG and experience the story Garriot and company have come up with for this new land.

 

It's already been branded an MMORPG and it already has brought in a ton of people because it's an MMORPG. Virtually all of the media attention it get's talks about it as an MMORPG. IT RARELY get's any media coverage as a single player RPG.

You can talk about the pros and cons of this, but that's how it is.

 

YEAH, Dragon Age: Inquisition, The Witcher 3, Pillars of Eternity, Skyrim, Fallout 4....if there's one thing these games have in common is that they are niche who aren't sustaining their respective companies because they are single-player games. And none of these games have proven that DLC can work for single-player games. None, nope, not at all.

 

I think it the overhead map were treated like the GPS in your car. On my GPS I can choose whether to be facing forward, or facing North. Some people prefer to face forward when navigating a map, but some of us like the map to always have North be up. Being able to toggle that could make a huge difference for many who are feeling directionally challenged in the game right now..

 

Surely you must realise your comment would carry more weight if the very first post you made to this thread hadn't told everyone not to expect Portlarium to keep their promises.